Can visiting your child be harassment without a court order restriction

[merryeagle]

Given the following court order:

"The Court makes no order for contact between the Applicant and the
subject children however the Respondent’s clear evidence was that she supported contact between the Applicant and the children as long as the children were not forced to attend such contact as such the court requests and suggests that the Respondent encourages the children to have contact."

My children have been alienated against me and are refusing to have contact with me. So I had to go to court.

Would I be in breach of a court order if I were to visit my children's school unannounced, without forcing them to speak to me?

It is my understanding that "No order" means there is no restrictions on me.

How do you interpret the above court order in terms of what contact I can have with my children?

It doesn't sound like alienation. From what you have written here and how it is very focused on your rights and demands I can see why they don't want contact. Why did you never introduce them to your partner or try to involve them in the wedding? Quite horrible for them to see you waiting outside school for them a number of times. That probably cemented their view of not wanting contact.

Here is rough time line.

2004 - Ex and I get married
2013 - Ex and I separate
July 2019 - I remarry
July 2019 - Ex tells me children no longer want to see me
Sep 2019 - I start court proceedings
Sep 2019 - Ex files non-molestation order which was dismissed
Sep 2019 - Ex makes unilateral decision to "homeschool" the children.
2019-2021 - Lengthy court proceedings, supervised contact, indirect contact etc, social services involved, caffcass involved.
August 2021 - Ex is granted permission to relocate to another city, court decides no order with regards to contact.
April 2023 - I start court proceedings again, after school visits, sending letters, text messages etc. Children still refused.
May 2023 - Ex files police complaint for harassment but doesn't mention this in court statements, nor at court hearing
May 2023 - Court dismisses my application
August 2023- Police asks me to come in for a voluntary interview. I end up getting arrested for harassment for visiting the children's school.

Having been in a similar position to your children, my advice would be to reflect on what you are trying to achieve here.

Assuming you have been an otherwise good parent, you are focusing your energy and frustration in completely the wrong direction.

Regardless of what CAFCAS may or may not have written in their report, only your children know how they feel NOW, and whether that is derived from their own experiences of your parenting, or from being influenced by the resident parent.

If they were much younger children, there might be value in pursuing the matter, as re-establishing contact with younger children would give you the opportunity to build/re-build the relationship. However, given the ages you have said they are now, this is not the time to keep pushing this - teenagers are stubborn at the best of times, and I think it would have the opposite effect. Even trying to get a decision from the court on whether or not they have been alienated is not going to stand in your favour later on.

Children (even ones who are now adults) generally don’t appreciate a bit of paper saying non-resident parent was right. If there is a relationship to be salvaged/re-established, then what is appreciated is knowing that their choices at the time (however upsetting for the non-resident parent) were respected, that their non-resident parent continued to support them financially, and that there was always an open channel for the child to reach out if/when they were ready.

you've had good advice already about this, from more than one poster. my only other suggestion on that point is to consider other ways to communicate.
when I was an angry teenager, the birthday cards etc that arrived from my non-resident parent went straight in the bin without even being opened/read. I’ll never know now what was in them.

Maybe set up an email address or something that you can write to, send photos etc, and make sure they are aware of it - they might not be ready now, but when they are, they will be able to see how often you were thinking of them, and the messages will be there then.

I thought you said the children had started refusing to see you long before you got married, as they have never met your new wife. When did the children start refusing to see you?

Just because something is technically legally allowed doesn't mean it's a good idea. And it would be an error of judgement if it leads to alienating your children further.

Agree with PP that the only way through this is to play the long game. Letters, cards, presents etc. Show you're there for them if and when they come round without trying to force yourself on them (and turning up unannounced when they've expressed a wish not to see you - regardless of what you believe about the alienation - is forcing yourself on them).

I am not unsympathetic. I didn’t know my own father for several years growing up. And my exh managed to alienate my own child from me.

But you saw your kids up until you got married. But you never introduced your kids to the person you married. You married someone without finding out how they blended with you children? Even though you were seeing them at the time?

Don’t you see how that’s not something a decent parent does? Can’t you see how for a child that might be quite upsetting? A final nail in the coffin?

If your children are alienated they believe their feelings. You turning up at school is upsetting for them. Yet you continue to do because you feel you have the right to. This isn’t ice cream for breakfast. This is you deciding your rights override their feelings. It’s pushing them further away. whether you have the right to or not, it’s not helping you and it’s not helping them.

What did the court papers they read say?

Were the court papers related to why you had to have supervised contact?

Oh wow, so this isn't about you having contact with your children but 'winning the battle' against your ex, proving to them that you're the goodie and she's been the baddie all along?!

IF your children ever want to reignite contact, I strongly suggest you embrace that rather than using it as an opportunity to drag their mum, otherwise that contact may not last very long.

I agree with previous posters that they're hardly little kids I'd moved out when I was the age of your eldest. Anyway I don't think there's anything the courts can do at that age but surely the mother can't stop them seeing you if they want to. I understand you believe you have been parentally alienated but is there another way to reach out like sending them letters or emails. I'm assuming the oldest child at least has a phone?

Yes, it can be deemed harassment.

The children would not want to have somebody they do not wish to have contact with hanging around their safe place (school) waiting for them. At best, it would make them angry, at worst scared, intimidated, threatened and unsafe.

Your refusal to accept that they have feelings and wishes that do not align with yours makes it all the more obvious to them that you do not care what they want, you want what you want.

I think you really need to accept that, alienated or not, these children (one of whom is almost an adult) don't want to see you at the moment

The more you push and turn up and try to force it, the more they are going to resist. By doing these things you could be reinforcing negative things they have been told if they have been alienated

What a sad story.
Seems really odd that police arrested for harassment. I suspect that this was outside of the court proceedings because the laws have now changed with harassment, if someone feels harassed the police have to take it seriously.
You haven't broken any orders though I don't think.
It's a very familiar pattern I'm afraid. What have the police said with regards to how you can contact the children? Do you have someone who can make contact on your behalf such as grandparents?

I am sorry but I am not just "anyone". I am the parent of these children. Children have a right to refuse contact or refuse the demands of a parent, however this refusal must be reasonable. A child resisting contact to a parent must be reasonably justified.

Your children are teenagers not primary school age. They have their own agency and don't have to explain anything to you.

I actually know plenty of teenagers who have completely refused or refused for periods of time to see the parent they don't live with. With the ones who decided to see their other parent again, that other parent gave them breathing space and respected their wishes to be left alone.

And while most of the parents they live with would prefer that their children see their other parent, they know they can't force it either. There are some who like using their children as pawns and it is a third party e.g. step-parent, ex step-parent, family friend who encouraged the relationship with the other parent.

Teenagers are illogical and are more influenced by their peers than their parents. This is a good thing because as your children get older and their peers change, they will come across more people in similar familial situations to them. They then may strike up a relationship with you but on their terms. Don't be surprised if when they do meet you as an adult they make a demand from you - this is why sending cards (keep records of sending them) and paying child maintence (keep records of this for multiple reasons) is important.

So as PPs have told you, you need to bide your time.

No unfortunately the children have wholesale rejected the absent parent's family as well.

For now, the police have asked me not to have any contact until they complete their investigation.

Just stay physically away from your children.

Also don't contact them by any electronic means as you can be charged with malicious communication.

You can send them cards - make sure the cards have simple messages in it - and presents using mail/delivery services but only after the police have done their investigation and there are no charges.

Sure, the children are coming of age and developing their own personalities etc. However, remember these views were formed whilst they were 11, 13, in dubious circumstances.

I do agree however, regardless of how their views were formed, it is unlikely and unhelpful to try and reverse it. This is something the children will have to initiate themselves at their own pace and terms.

As the rejected parent all I can do is, to get the court to recognise what has gone on and for them to extend appropriate care and therapy to help my children navigate it.

I think it is important for the professionals involved in the case to first recognise that alienation has negatively impacted the children. How the children recover from it is uncertain but a first step is to recognise that they are suffering alienation.

As the rejected parent all I can do is, to get the court to recognise what has gone on and for them to extend appropriate care and therapy to help my children navigate it.

The Family Court does not do this.

I suggest you take legal advice from a Family solicitor to understand the limitations of the Family Court.

Also your children being 14+ are too old and healthy for you to use Family Court.

I'm sorry this sounds difficult for all. View this period as a blip, a bump in the road, things will change just hold your nerve.
It'll take time but have faith

Yeah, there is definitely a lot of relevant information being left out here.

First you say they stopped contact after you got married. Later you admit they have never even met your wife so there must have been extremely limited or no contact before your wedding.

Then you say they apparently stopped contact because of what they read in court papers left lying around. But you hadn’t filed any court papers before they stopped contact.

What is the reason your children ORIGINALLY stopped contact, ie during the time period when you had another partner but did not introduce them to each other? How much co-parenting contact did you actually have with them prior to them moving away? Were you on a regular schedule?

No wonder your kids are done with you, you are clearly ignoring their very clear wishes. I'm guessing you ignore boundaries in other areas too. Turning up at school will only reinforce that you disrespect them, and are only concerned about yourself. I don't blame them tbh.

Agreed. There's a huge chunk of the story that is not being provided.

Chapter-and-verse on the legal docs and police complaints. But no clear time line of when the children actually stopped seeing the absent parent, when the absent parent got together with their now-spouse, why the children weren't introduced to the now-spouse when they first came onto the scene....

Just a very simplified poor-me version - I got married after six years of co-parenting and a week later my ex stopped me seeing the children and went on to poison them against me.

My guess is that the marriage broke up after he cheated and left for the OW, which is why she’s never been introduced, and the OP’s “six years of amicable co-parenting” is actually six years of him being only lightly involved as a parent before the kids decided the already-minimal amount of contact they had wasn’t worth the effort.

Now he’s trying to use the courts to force them to play happy families.

I get strong “I’ll decide what’s relevant for you to know” vibes off this one.

Doesn't matter. They're too old for what you propose, having developed sense of self and their personalities nearer ten years ago, not since you met somebody - and no teenager born will appreciate a parent they don't want to see claiming that they're incapable of knowing their own minds and need 'fixing' through therapy.

It's a variant of the crazy ex story.

A whole chunk of the story is missing here.

You're saying you remarried in 2019 and a week later the children stopped seeing you but you're also saying they stopped seeing you as soon as you began a new relationship and didn't meet your wife.

Which one is it?

When did you meet your wife?
Was it an arranged marriage?
Did you have a relationship with your wife prior to marriage?
Did your children ever meet your wife?

I can imagine "daddy has a new wife that you've never met" might be upsetting

It sounds like you care more about proving you ex is the 'bad guy' and you are the 'good guy' than you do about your children. Many men use court as a way to abuse their ex when all avenues have failed, eg told by the police to leave them alone.