Wrongfully being accused by brother and wife

[ForJoyousDog]

I don't know what to do! My brother has POA for finances for my mother, which he has actioned and now deals with her banking. He and his wife are doing an audit of mum's spending since dad died in 2019. Mum became a recluse after his death, the mobility car had to be returned. I live 750 miles from mum, my brother 12 miles but to help mum I did her grocery shopping online using her debit card. This turned into birthday cards, gifts, hobby materials etc but everything with her authority to use her account and card. My brother and his wife have said that now my brother "has unrestricted access to mum's account and are working closely with the bank as there are suspicious payments that have come out of her account". I have done nothing wrong, certainly not used my mothers bank account as my own but the accusation has been going on since January, the messages I get are hateful, they are relishing trying to destroy me, my husband won't support me because he told me this would happen and he is angry as to how this makes him look. My mother has told my brother that I had authority to do any shopping etc using her card, but it is still going on. I'm not eating, sleeping and my relationship is suffering. What can I do to make this stop does anyone have any ideas please?

Given that your husband warned you of the danger, I can't understand why you didn't keep really clear and transparent records of every purchase you made on your mum's behalf. I can also understand why he's feeling incredibly frustrated with you.

I really hope you can access every past transaction and create a clear document outlining every purchase and its purpose.

Your brother and SIL are disgusting. What a way to repay you for the help you have given your mother. Where were they when you were shopping for her and making AUTHORISED purchases? Living their lives by any chance?
Provided hat your mother is campus mantis, she needs to put him in his place and tell him to back off. And once your mother has died, you can have no more ties to them and cut them from your life.

My brother was aware I was buying my mothers food, his son was receiving birthday cards from moonpig as were they, mum didn't and doesn't have mobile phone, laptop or tablet. As I mentioned it is only since January of this year since 2018 he has been doing this.

But if there was a POA then DM was not in a position to give that authority and the OP knew that.

If she has capacity and did not give informed consent for the POA docs then contact the Office of the Public Guardian and report it.

It would really help if the total value could be included of these gifts. If we’re talking the odd fiver for a moonpig card, fine. If it’s more like £300 on a birthday gift for your DH then less fine.

Sorry but in FAMILIES, it should not be as rigid as that. There should not be this culture of suspicion over every penny if everyone is generally honest.
How many times have I given my mum my card and told her please buy dog food with it when she passes the shop as it's near her work? Or please can you pick up something for my kids? And vice versa, I do things for her. The brother has CHOSEN to behave like this, most likely to make himself look better (and has probably go this wife's hand up his arse directing him). Wonder if he wants a larger share of the inheritance?

Unfortunately the law supersedes family loyalty.

I think you need to take legal advice and approach the OPG having spoken confidentially with your Mother. Keep written and audio records of all interactions from now on

If mum has capacity she can still make decisions about how she spends her money, he doesn't gave full control unless she lacks capacity or has asked him to take over. If he claims she lacks capacity that needs to be confirmed by the staff. Going forward just give her back her card, delete it from any sites you use, print out any purchasing history you have, don't do any more shopping for her, tell mum and brother they need to do all shopping, pay bills, etc from now on. What happened before poa is not his business, he also needs to provide evidence of any shopping and yearly accounts. My sibling made me account for every penny I spent on parents behalf, in the end I just paid for treats myself and didn't involve bossy bully financial poa sibling, it wasn't worth the grief to argue over a 5 back of new knickers or a pack of biscuits.

@ForJoyousDog The holder of a POA doesn't get to dictate what the person they have POA for spends if they still have capacity.

What Can't You Do as an Attorney

• Make decisions that restrict the donor's freedom.
• Make decisions when the donor still has capacity.
• Make assumptions based on age, behaviour, condition or appearance.

They must still do what the person wants to happen. It appears from what you said that the POA only came into effect in January this year, so prior to that your DB can check what happened after your Dad died all he likes. But before January the POA was not yet in effect. He sounds money-grabbing if he's going back to 2109 and may not be a great POA when it comes to your mum needing things - and it doesn't sound like he really understands the role of a POA when your Mum still has capacity. He doesn't for example, have the right to refuse to spend money on things she wants to spend it on, while she still has capacity. This checking back to 2019 is sending up red flags to me, on his intentions

Have you bought anything at your Mum's request since January? That will have to stop right now and you need to tell your Mum she now needs to ask your brother to do these things.

Yes - it was wrong to use your Mum's debit card if she wasn't there - but I don't know anyone with older relatives who has never taken the card for an elderly parent to get them money from an ATM, or order something online for them when asked to do so by that parent. Yes it shouldn't happen, but it does all the time.

I would make a list now of everything which you bought/paid for at her request and get her to sign that she asked you to do all these things, while she still has capacity. I would also say to her that she could make you a POA too if she wants to continue asking you to do these things - or she could make you a POA instead. Financial transactions don't require you to be living close to her.

I would try not to worry about it though. What's done is done - but I would maybe speak to a Solicitor if it will help your anxiety.

Sorry!! Completely untrue. Not the case at all. A POA doesn't mean that the POA holder can over-ride the person who granted the POA's wishes, nor can the POA make their own decisions about what should happen financially while the POA Granter still has capacity. The OP says her Mother still has capacity and having a POA does not mean that she loses the right to make her own decisions to the holder of the POA

It's also worth pointing out that the POA holder may not agree with the holder's decisions on spending, but a difference of opinion does not mean that the holder doesn't have capacity.

In those circumstances the POA can be used to allow the holder to help in all financial dealings - such as the bank, insurance companies, phone companies, etc etc without the POA granter being present. These companies can then speak to the POA holder as if they were the granter

Even after the granter loses capacity ( and the POA should specify at what point someone can be deemed to no longer have capacity) any decisions taken by the holder should be in the best interests of the granter and what the holder might be anticipated to have wanted if they DID have capacity.

Of course she can. Just like anyone else with capacity can ask someone to order something for then using their card, or just pass their card to a friend at the bar to tap to pay for their round while they nip to the toilet.

At this point the LPA is 'with permission'. It's not been enacted because the mother had lost capacity (which would be a whole different ball game).

I've been living this for 14 years since my mum was paralysed by her stroke, but retained all her cognitive abilities.

im guessing you can prove it was all delivered to your mums address or the gift recipients address. It should be very easy to take a snagit and send through from the online supermarket. Why habe you not done this?

clearly they think over and above the stuff for your mum you’ve been using the card for yourself, so ask them what suspicious payments specifically and you can them prove very easily and it goes away.

I would ask for a list where they were not happy with the spending and list a reason for each.
Card from Mum to grandchild
Weekly shop delivered to mum etc.
Amazon delivery for grandchild's birthday

Tell them you have nothing to hide and happy to go through each purchase and give an explanation.

If the present to your self was a Gucci handbag or something in a similar vein or outside your birthday, then you may have a problem But if it is a knitted scarf from M&S or similar, then no there is no problem.

Say you are happy for hm to take over all admin.

I honestly don’t get the angst. I mean sure it’s unpleasant, but it’s so easily fixed, so easily . As it’s online full history is available. I don’t get why it’s all the thry are trying to destroy me, my husband won’t support me stuff. Just provide the evidence where there is concern, you will have it.

I think a huge number of POAs are not always taken out for truly altruistic reasons - my BIL and SIL emptied my Mother in law’s bank account - £300,000 - and told us that our legacy £sd was so small due to tax 😳 both pillars of the Church - ☘️👍

This is a nightmare. I do this for my mum- not that often. More usually I buy stuff and she never pays me back. In the past I had her info and did it for her.

Otherwise it's really hard for older people to access stuff.

My dad says:
’Suspicion haunts the guilty mind.’

They are at it.

Definitely this. Just go through the transactions with a line explanation for each one - ideally ask them which ones they're worried about to speed things up but otherwise you have nothing to hide so there's no need to stress.

And to all the posters who are pearl clutching about OPs actions, I mean seriously?!

"Hello darling I'm really struggling this week can you please sort out a card and toy for great nephews birthday?"
"No sorry Mum I don't have legal authority to do that for you goodbye"

As if!

Many people do what you did to help out and whilst it would’ve been best to have a card in your own name, your mum knew about it.
I would make a comprehensive list - go back as far as you can and ask your mum to sign that she did agree to the purchase on her behalf; have a witness with you so it can be seen she’s not being coerced.

What an utter bastard

Print order confirmations. Annotate and file them. If you can, speak to your mum on the phone, use another device to record the conversation, and get her to confirm that she was about the spending.

Have it all ready to answer the bullshit allegations that your brother has made, if the police come.

what a wanker

Surely a POA is only meant to come into place once the Donor has lost capacity and you are stating your mother still has capacity. Why is it necessary for your brother and SIL to be going through all her finances? And the fact she wasn't even aware she'd signed the POA forms?! Is that not a huge red flag? Seems to me as if your brother and SIL are accusing you of financial abuse when I would be extremely concerned about their conduct, which sounds like it's on the way to being abusive if not already.

They are not listening to your mother when she is telling them she gave you permission to make the payments, already treating her as if she has no say or choice in the matter. Yes you shouldn't have done it as it doesn't look great now but I think you need to be thinking about how you can protect your mum from something a lot worse happening at the hands of brother and SIL. Can you visit mum and try and discuss this in person?