Confused about police action

[W0rri3d]

A loved one is potentially in trouble with the police. They had been invited to give an interview under caution, but have now been told that told that a decision on being charged etc can be made without even talking to them (is all being based on statements from the people who reported it, and CCTV). Myself and a few friends were also a witness to their "crime" and are being refused a chance to give our own statements. The police are also saying he can not have an appropriate adult if he comes into the station for interview (he is autistic, is entitled to an appropriate adult, and carries a card to say this).

BTW, the crime was having an autistic meltdown in public. My loved one was overwhelmed, tried to escape the situation but was shouted/grabbed at, so had a full meltdown involving shouting and throwing items. He was then forced to the floor by someone not even trained in restraint.

It all seems horribly unfair and one sided. The people who gave statements have since been spreading lies about him, and one is now in psychiatric hospital.

I am worried sick about all of this.

Anyone savvy with matters like this... any words of comfort or advice most welcome.

Thanks

Quite a bit being a high functioning autistic!

My point is simply that the law, and we are dealing with the blunt instrument of law here, determines that to be able to use his meltdown as a defence, he must prove (the burden of proof being on him) that he was unable to tell right from wrong during the meltdown.

A quick google shows there is no precedent for this working as a defence, good few failures though!

Good solicitor is best advice.

He was overwhelmed, and his mind perceived the actions of others as an attack.
In his mind, he was protecting himself.

I'm not going to comment on the legalities as I have no knowledge. But can I offer a different perspective regarding the customer?

They saw a grown man who was shouting enter a busy enclosed space. This causes a normal reaction in most people to be on alert for anger or drug issues. They then saw this supposedly angry man make a beeline for a woman sitting at the opposite side. The customer tried to stop angry man to protect the woman which resulted in angry man lashing out and throwing things, which ends up with people trying to restrain him as they now assume he will hurt the woman. They won't believe you when you said leave him alone, he's okay as this is what abused women do too.

Change autism to abusive and you will understand why they did what they did. Most people won't even glance at a lanyard when faced with someone behaving differently as they will assume it's a work, not disability, one.

I think if you had sat nearer to the door then this might not have happened as you would have been able to immediately diffuse the situation. But of course none of us know that for sure. I'm sorry OP, you must be worried sick for him.

He should have legal representation with him and pay attention to their instructions.

If someone is a danger to the public (and I recognise that this is going beyond the scope of what happened here in OP's situation), it really doesn't matter why. If someone is a danger to themselves or someone else, it will be acted on, as it should. Even if someone is not culpable, they can't be allowed to do harm.

Thank you, I am worried sick. He is so defeated over this whole thing. He has made attempts on his life before. I am doing what I can, but it it is triggering things for me too.

It's lucky that there's a CCTV recording.

OP, the best thing you can do for him is persuade him to actually go and speak to a solicitor. He should do that tomorrow. - will be able to speak to a solicitor tomorrow if he really wishes to - and ideally he should do it at their office rather than at the police station. If he's entitled to have an appropriate adult at an interview then the solicitor will quickly be able to arrange that with the police. It's a very bad idea for him to be trying to negotiate or discuss this on his own behalf with the police.

Sorry if I missed it but I was wondering if you had spoken to the national autistic society for advice. It's likely this is not the first time an autistic person has had a melt down in public in the way you have described involving others / the police being involved.
Also this police guidance on first responders to autistic meltdowns - maybe speak to the national police autism association for their advice too.
Autistic meltdowns: a guide for first responders | National Police Autism Association (npaa.org.uk)

The CCTV does not get into the nuance of 'why'.

It makes him look violent. And the police are saying that is the only "evidence" they need.

Tomorrow/later is a new day. He is going to be getting in touch with his MIND worker at least.

Can his MIND worker support him today? Has an advocate been down to the station?

@W0rri3d The CCTV won't tell the whole story, but if the camera was pointing in the right direction it will provide a very good starting point.

It's good that he plans to speak to his MIND worker, but to defend himself in criminal proceedings he needs to speak to a solicitor. He should already have done it, so be a good friend and try to persuade him. (I'm a lawyer, btw.)

Thank you, thank you, thank you soooo much for this!

I will send this info to him in the morning.

I'm a police officer , there is absolutely no way a charge can be brought without interviewing the "suspect " to obtain evidence through questioning.

If he is autistic he will absolutely be able to have an appropriate adult although they cannot answer questions for him - they are there to ensure he understands the questions and ensure proper legal procedures are followed .

If he's been invited to interview this is a voluntary interview under pace 9 - if he refuses then potentially he could be arrested under pace 12 to obtain the relevant information.

I would ensure he goes to the pace 9 voluntarily interview and ensure that they know he will be needing an appropriate adult .

Whilst I am a pc I am also the mother to an autistic adult so I understand your concerns . But nothing posted rings quite true of due process .

Also even with a pace 9 interview the interviewee is entitled to free and independent legal advice through the duty solicitors.

Or you can appoint your own .

Thank you.

He has been told that a decision will be made without him. And also without further witness statements... if this does go to court, surely we can say our piece?

It does sound like due process is not being followed... and I think it is because he is autistic and an easy target.
What can we do about this?

If he’s not been arrested, then surely the decision the police are talking about will be as to whether to arrest him or not?

I don’t think he is an “easy target” but unfortunately if you are perceived to be dangerous or aggressive in public people are understandably going to feel threatened.

Op if you think due process is not being followed you could ring 101 and ask who the officer in the case is - and ask to speak to them .

They should be able to explain but will need the permission of your loved one so have him there with you .

I wouldn't jump the gun - I'd get the facts from the officer in the case first .

I'm fairly certain you probably aren't privy to all the information- get this first - come back to
The thread and I can advise .

There is no way a charge can be brought without interviewing your relative - where are you getting this info from ? It's incorrect. Due process has to be followed or it would simply be kicked out at court . There is some misunderstanding here .

They can't just charge on CCTV. It's not possible . The xx tv needs to be shown to your relative and his account taken .

I don't know. And the not knowing is killing him. He is fearing the cops battering his door down at any second. His mental health had dropped... I am so worried about him.

Is this info
Coming from your relative ?

He's not understanding the process if so . He needs help . But I promise
You no
Charge can be brought without interviewing him .

Op just ring 101 and get the facts from the officer in the case .

Then come back .

I would, but I have no log number. What do I say?

Ring 101

Explain . Get the officer in charges collar number and name and ask the call handler to ask them to ring you when back on duty .

Get the facts from the officer dealing and don't listen to hearsay before you have the facts .

That's my advice . You may be able to arrange to go to the station and see the officer with your relative - police are not out to criminalise people with disabilities. You need to talk to the officer in the case and get some facts .

Yes, all the police correspondence has been via email. It is how he prefers to communicate.
But I do think he is misinterpreting some of it. Maybe to his detriment. I don't know.
He does need help with this.

Give your relatives name - the call handler can find the case number and incident number from that and their date of birth and address.

They can see who the officer in charge is and give their details - they can email that officer with your details and number for a call .

If your relative is over 18 you will need his permission to speak in his behalf .

Yeah your relative is getting muddled I'm afraid . You take over and I'm sure this can be sorted with minimal fuss .