Confused about police action

[W0rri3d]

A loved one is potentially in trouble with the police. They had been invited to give an interview under caution, but have now been told that told that a decision on being charged etc can be made without even talking to them (is all being based on statements from the people who reported it, and CCTV). Myself and a few friends were also a witness to their "crime" and are being refused a chance to give our own statements. The police are also saying he can not have an appropriate adult if he comes into the station for interview (he is autistic, is entitled to an appropriate adult, and carries a card to say this).

BTW, the crime was having an autistic meltdown in public. My loved one was overwhelmed, tried to escape the situation but was shouted/grabbed at, so had a full meltdown involving shouting and throwing items. He was then forced to the floor by someone not even trained in restraint.

It all seems horribly unfair and one sided. The people who gave statements have since been spreading lies about him, and one is now in psychiatric hospital.

I am worried sick about all of this.

Anyone savvy with matters like this... any words of comfort or advice most welcome.

Thanks

Whether he is dangerous or not in your opinion, the police will be looking at the facts to decide if he acted in a dangerous and reckless /violent manner during that specific incident.

I assume the pp was asking if you have alternative facts to share about what actually happened during that incident.

So if all you’re going to provide is a sort of character reference about how you don’t feel he is dangerous, it may not help much at this stage although if it progresses his defence lawyer could request that from you you at a a later date.

Your loved one will surely mention alongside his lawyer that he is autistic
and together they can explain the sequence of events (ie. Customers touching him first) which will be backed up by the CCTV footage?

I believe that too. I know how to help when he is meltdown (and am good at spotting the early rumblings), so I help him cool off a little and get him home. He was prevented from getting to me, and the behaviour of others set him off more.
He has been treated awfully by police before and has a very low opinion of them.

BTW, he is not my son. He is nearly a decade older than me.

If you cannot control yourself and therefore are a risk to others, by reason of mental defect, one remedy the law has is to section you.

If on the other hand you do not have a mental defect the law would expect you to be able to control your behaviour, and therefore, as you are reasonably in control, realise your actions are wrong, you commit a crime by your actions.

(the bit of the law is called the M'naughten rules), its not called mental illness, but "defect of reason from a disease of the mind" which can be a broad church, things have moved on since the 1880s when it was all brought into effect.

So he either has a condition resulting in a defect of reason, a valid defence, or has no defence, as I read it.

HOWEVER As it seems he was set upon by others for purely a vocalisation that would change things, or, was he throwing things at this point, people can use reasonable force to restrain someone in such circumstances.

I would approach the police and demand they take your statement and the others who witnessed how this all escalated; the first person who attempted to assault him. Then press that he was assaulted by the member of staff who sat on him and could have killed him and the other maverick members of the public who decided it looked fun and joined in. If they refuse demand to speak to someone higher up as they are discriminating against a vulnerable, disabled victim. follow the official complaints procedure if you have to.

Also, the fact that they are denying him an appropriate adult shows they have no understanding or regard for proper procedure and are happy to put your loved one at even further disadvantage to meet their aims.

'An autistic person has the right to an Appropriate Adult. ' Criminal Justice - a guide for police officers and professionals (autism.org.uk)

As another poster said, either he was 'out of control', which could be deemed a risk to the public, or he was not out of control and it is therefore a choice he made, which also presents a risk to the public. The police won't see it as a 'hulk moment' to laugh at.

Is this the first time something like this has happened? If so, that's in your favour.

If I was having things thrown at me I would want the police to take it seriously autism is not an excuse

Yes an appropriate adult it appears is needed but stop minimising what has happened

OK, so
You were all at a, erm 'community hub' which is inclusive/welcoming/ND-friendly blah2.
Despite that seemingly welcoming atmosphere. The first thing he did when entering the hub was to yell loudly.
Then, again despite the welcoming atmosphere, this was met with a violent reaction from another 'customer' who proceeded to use physical violence.
And even more people joined in, pushing him and it all escalated? Why would such people be at the community hub

It all sounds very strange. Were the other 'customers' suffering from some form of MH condition, drunk or on drugs? Presumably as one of them is now in a psychiatric medical facility., Did the first customer think your friend was shouting at them, rather than 'throwing up frustration *into the air"'?

You have chosen your words very carefully but I think there's a lot more to unpack here. <Maybe the hub isn't such a safe place after all.

If everyone there had something going on can a case really be brought against any one person. AT the very least they should be charged too.

He was throwing things because people were shouting at him and grabbing at him.

He was in total meltdown. I would not even describe him throwing things as meaningful. His limbs go like jelly and he just trying to bat people away. It was awful to see, and to see him getting thrown to the floor like an animal (by someone who was not trained in restraint at all). I have been restrained myself and it brought back awful memories.

I think your friend needs help. That is not acceptable behaviour, whatever his reasons eg autism, melt downs etc. doesn’t excuse his behaviour. If he was a toddler that would be different, but a grown man needs help if he can’t control himself.

Thank you. I have just spoken to him, and he seems so defeated. I am so worried about him. He feels awful shame and guilt after meltdowns. He can't help them... it is a an awful way to go through life. He is amazing and successful in so many ways. But some people (including a few on this thread) would see him institutionalised.

He is seeing his Mind worker tomorrow, and will show her all the police correspondence in case he has misinterpreted anything.

I have tried to get him to press charges on the guy who sat on him... he wont. He is too kind, and said maybe the guy felt he had no choice.

Autistic toddlers grow into autistic adults.

If he's successful and in a high flying job, as you say, surely he can control himself in public.

Yes, it is a community hub/warm space/safe space.

He came in and yelled into the air. He has been going to this hub for a long time and the staff know him and know his yelling is not anything remarkable. My loved one has been consulted in setting up a cool down area for people to go to when overwhelmed.

He entered the hub and shouted (at no one). He tried to get to me... I can de-escalate things. A customer shouted at him, and prevented him from getting to me. As far as I am concerned, my loved ones actions were provoked. But I have not been allowed to tell the police this.

so someone doing something to him and you encourage charges now he may be facing some himself that is not on?

What? Are you for real? Do you even know anything about autism?

FFS people, no some people cannot always control themselves in public. It would be like telling off an epileptic for having a seizure. Meltdowns - a guide for all audiences (autism.org.uk)

You can be sectioned for autism. The government put forward a draft bill to change this in 2022, but legislation has not been introduced.

Given he did it, it's caught on CCTV and witnessed, theres not much point of entering anything other than a guilty plea, it will probably end up with a community sentence.

I disagree. Most offences require mens rea (a guilty mind or criminal intent). On OP's posts, it does not sound like her loved one had the required mens rea. Unless he is charged with a strict liability offence (one which does not require mens rea), he should plead not guilty. It is highly unlikely he would be sectioned as that requires him to be in immediate need of care or control, not that he might have needed that in the past or may need it in the future.

Thank you.

The irony in all of this, is during the same day in this community hub, someone did have a seizure. They were given privacy etc.

So if someone did some serious harm or killed another then

'oh but they have autism'
'well that is ok then nothing to see here'

no it is not the same!!!!

I certainly wouldn't want to see anyone institutionalised, but the grim reality of the grown up world is that if you cannot control yourself in this way, ultimately you will end up in trouble - and a sanction will be imposed.

If he has a good job he must be able to control himself there, so he needs to work on whatever control strategies he has to make sure he doesn't fall foul of the law.

What he needs is not an appropriate adult, but a good solicitor to go the interview with him - I would have thought no comment to the police (as they seem to be intent on charging) then be apologetic and contrite to the magistrate and take it on the chin - this time won't be the end of the world - but next time might be.

Some real ignorance on this post.

Many of us autistics can get on with various aspects of life like a neurotypical adult... Until we can't.

Meltdowns are embarrassing for us. I feel absolute shame when in that state/ after that state.

If we could control them unlike a toddler, we'd not have a diagnosis, would we. Think about that.

OP, I hope you're able to help him.

Again, do you know anything about autism and meltdowns?

Just because he is is educated and has a good job does not mean he has control when overwhelmed.

Please read up on autism. You can be amazing on some areas and super low functioning in others.

Thank you for your post.

It seems like if you are autistic and can hold down a a job, home, relationship etc, then you are not allowed to meltdown or anything.

He is potentially being criminalised for a meltdown. It makes me sick.

There cannot be any criminal intent involved in an involuntary act, autism meltdowns are involuntary as are seizures. In fact, autistic brains have a lot of seizure-like activity so it is quite likely that autism meltdowns ARE seizures.