POA-who should it be?

[POAPITA]

Name changed for this.

Parent has full capacity. Physically disabled but is relatively independent but needs support and has a carer. Various health conditions but nothing serious or life threatening. In their 80s.

4 adult children:

1 works full time, married, has own health difficulties, adult children. Lives 6 miles away. Sees parent twice a month or so. Rings once a week sometimes less. No medical knowledge or awareness of parental finances.

2 works full time, married, spouse has several physical health problems and is awaiting surgery. Phones a few times a week. Regularly visits to do DIY type jobs, takes parent out for lunch/dinner about every 4-6 weeks. Lives 100 miles away. No knowledge of medical or financial situation.

1. Works full time, young adult child. Married. Phones weekly or so. Visits a few times a year. Last visited in the spring. Lives 200 miles away. No knowledge of medical or financial situation.

4 Full time carer for parent. Primary and teenage children, visits daily for general household tasks like cooking, cleaning, laundry, and phones twice a day or more for emotional and sometimes financial or practical support. Handles day to day finances. Attends medical appointments with parent, liaises with healthcare professionals and has healthcare background. Lives within walking distance. First port of call for support.

Who is best placed to have POA?

The parent is responsible for this mess. @POAPITA you say they are mentally OK, just physically debilitated - but this mess is enough to make one wonder ...

Sadly they just seem to go along with what they are told and trust that others know what they are talking about. When 4 spoke to them about different scenarios it was clear they had not thought about anything beyond oh great 1 and 2 will sort everything. The relief of having things "sorted" was the main thing. Now that 4 has said what about x,y,z they are very upset and anxious and saying 4 needs to speak to 2 and sort everything out. 4 has refused because it's not 4's responsibility to sort out what parent and 1 and 2 have agreed. As far as 4 is concerned the parent has created this situation and will need to sort it out with 1 and 2.

Was one of the scenarios, "what will happen if I am incapacitated, car crash, bad fall, that sort of thing"
My brother and I are POA for our dad, but he is the main carer and visits daily much like 4, however we have discussed what happens if he cannot make it etc, who to contact in emergency, how to get carers in.
Also 4 (along with 1,2,& 3) should look at getting respite care in place, so maybe someone in once a week so that 4 can have a break.

Yes, that kind of thing but I don't think that's been discussed with either of the actual POAs! The forms haven't yet been sent off to be registered but they will be next week. I'm going to see 4 again later and will see where she's up to with stepping back.

Parent has decided not to register the forms until they feel happier with the decisions and/or have changed the decisions. 4 has remained firm in saying it is up to the parent to sort this with 1 and 2. 1 is out of the country for 2 weeks and 2 is visiting next week to go through all the financial information yet hasn't ask for any health information.

How much would this cost to go through a solicitor? The parent's will is lodged with a solicitor so I would have thought it would be logical to use the same one for this? Even the solicitor isn't nearby though!

4 is stepping back but has been deemed difficult.

has been deemed difficult

Firstly, good for 4. These things are always way, way harder to do in practice.
Remind 4 it would be a lot more bloody difficult if they'd NOT done this and had to live with the consequences

#team4
#go4
for 4

The shit has hit the fan this last week. 2 is not happy that the parent has not registered the documents. The parent is angry with 4 that they won't help sort it all out. The parent has no idea what they have signed. 1 and 2 are appointed jointly and severally. The parent and 1 insists that 1 is just a back up and 2 will do everything. Yet 4 is getting grief because they refuse to help sort out the paperwork and what needs to be documented in the finer details. 4 is also upset at being blamed for not speaking to 1 due to being NC after being made the family a scapegoat as a young teen. 4 is thoroughly pissed off and upset. Parent is upset and saying they can't cope with it. What a fucking mess. 4 has told the parent to seek legal advice.

4 needs to stay back and let the rest of them get on with it! That was the parents and 1&2s plan wasn't it? 4 wasn't needed?

But apparently try 4 hasn't been excluded and is needed for all the discussion and admin of this and no doubt of posting out the forms too. Lots of handwringing by parent going on it seems as though it's not the parent's mess to sort out.

4 needs to hold the line and not get involved- it's the parents mess to sort out. I also think it's for the parent to apologise to 4 for taking them for granted and being totally out of order in their disrespect of all that 4 has done (& seemingly they want them to continue to do). Hope 4 is ok.

The parent is behaving very badly. Is this the start of dementia? It happens like this - not necessarily confusion, but irrational or unusual anger (stemming from panic).

4 needs to stay strong and stay out of it. If she were to keep doing all the day to day financial & medical stuff, without a POA, and with others holding it, she could find herself in an impossible position legally. Could she even be seen as acting illegally ...? (I'm not a lawyer, though).

Parent has always been a bit on the learned helplessness side. I think more and more has been put onto 4 over the years and now 4 is expected to do most things. There's no financial incentive. She gets less than £2 a day for 5 hours of caring responsibilities from carers allowance or whatever it's called. She's drowning in this mess at the moment. She's a single parent of 3 with 2 who are teens with additional needs and 1 who is still young. She has no help from anyone and her exH is a feckless wanker. She's angry her siblings don't do anything to help with the parents care when they could do something to help even if it's only to take over the online shop or visit and give her a break for a day.

Agree with everyone else.

4 needs to hold firm and keep doing what they're (not) doing.

They're demonstrating their point perfectly.

Go 4!!!

We're all behind you!

Yes it is a bit of a potential wake up call I think last week 4 wasn't very available because the dc had numerous medical and school appointments and couldn't parent to their hospital appointment too. There were no offers of help from other family members although two of did did briefly visit. They didn't do so much as run the vac round the place nevremind anything like 4 dies on a daily basis. They didn't have time but then they never do. Parent was a bit passive-aggressive with 4 about not being able to help in person but all the banking and prescriptions were still sorted by 4. Parent isn't keen to ask anyone else for help. I've run out of milk, paracetamol etc is up to 4 to sort even if it's snowing or whatever despite parent having good neighbours who drive to the shops daily. 4 is asked to get cash out regularly but with no POA that might make things tricky for 4. 4 needs a bloody rest. A proper phone off not contactable rest. Sorry, it's really winding me up now.

4 phoned me yesterday and the parent has decided that 4 will be POA for welfare and health. No asking, just telling.
There's one quote for using a solicitor and it's nearly £750!
I'm not sure if any more thought has been put into this that it was before. I suspect that the parent has seen how useless 1 is for anything and how unlikely 2 is to be able to do anything because their spouse is having surgery and 2 will be busy caring for them and working the rest of the time. I also suspect the parent is thinking 4 will take care of all the paperwork for the POA and all the finer details so lots of work for 4. I think 1 and 2 will stay as joint and severally for finances.

4 needs to make it clear that it's health AND finances (jointly and severally, if parent wishes) or nothing

Why does it need to be finances and health?

Why would you trust someone for one not both?

It's not been deemed a matter of trust but I think because 2 is very level-headed and more experienced with all things financial. Could be tricky though if care homes are involved perhaps.

if 4 doesn't have it for Finance then anything which crops up will need to be dealt with by 1 or 2, so no ringing the bank to check any ambiguity or setting up DDs for energy bills or any future payments, she won't be able to check the account to make sure everything is okay and there is enough money to go shopping.

Whoever the parent wants. With my DF he chose the oldest and youngest of 4 based on who he trusted most. The youngest lived nearest and knew most about the health and care system. No 2 sister was offended as she's second oldest. My DF simply said 'because it's my choice.'

It's a daft thing to care about as with this POA it was for health and care - and who actually wants to be the one there having the responsibility to decided whether not to resuscitate or to switch off life support? Let it go OP - it's not a contest about who's most important.

Health and welfare is good to have so that the GP hospital will interact and share information when required and able to choose nursing home if needed. For resuscitation there is an option for the decision to be made by medical professionals, we personally choose this for my gran because in the moment when it’s required it might be hard to say stop when it’s not actually in her best interests.
for finance if the mum wants her to have any involvement in paying for shopping, bills or needs to access any accounts to change or set up new tariffs etc she should have POA jointly and severally. If the other siblings are going to be doing all the shopping and bills sorting then that’s fine.
the POA forms can be completed fairly easily without a solicitor. I would advise that it is completed with full transparency so everyone is aware of what’s occurring. There is an option on the form to notify other people that a POA is being completed and might be beneficial that all siblings are aware.

What a mess! It actually sounds as if some or all of the siblings don't even understand what the difference between POA and being an executor is. Also I don't understand how the current forms were going to be registered anyway if 4's signature was required somewhere and they hadn't provided it? You don't necessarily need a solicitor to sort out POA but it would probably be money well spent in this case as they should be able to point out the different implications to the parties involved. Of course that would involve all parties engaging with the process which doesn't necessarily sound like it will happen either!

4 has essentially said fuck off. Her name has been added but the parent can't say what for and it's possibly 1,2, and 4 together but no specifics at all. The parent isn't able to say what the POA if for beyond "if I become incapacitated" but can't say further than that.

Parent has said they are not going to appoint anybody now and social services will have to sort things out if they lose capacity. The toys are out of the pram and 4 has had it and completely disengaged from it all now. What a farce. I'm taking wine to 4 later!