POA-who should it be?

[POAPITA]

Name changed for this.

Parent has full capacity. Physically disabled but is relatively independent but needs support and has a carer. Various health conditions but nothing serious or life threatening. In their 80s.

4 adult children:

1 works full time, married, has own health difficulties, adult children. Lives 6 miles away. Sees parent twice a month or so. Rings once a week sometimes less. No medical knowledge or awareness of parental finances.

2 works full time, married, spouse has several physical health problems and is awaiting surgery. Phones a few times a week. Regularly visits to do DIY type jobs, takes parent out for lunch/dinner about every 4-6 weeks. Lives 100 miles away. No knowledge of medical or financial situation.

1. Works full time, young adult child. Married. Phones weekly or so. Visits a few times a year. Last visited in the spring. Lives 200 miles away. No knowledge of medical or financial situation.

4 Full time carer for parent. Primary and teenage children, visits daily for general household tasks like cooking, cleaning, laundry, and phones twice a day or more for emotional and sometimes financial or practical support. Handles day to day finances. Attends medical appointments with parent, liaises with healthcare professionals and has healthcare background. Lives within walking distance. First port of call for support.

Who is best placed to have POA?

So does it really matter who is POA? Just get decisions made in line with parental views.

It has been decided by parent and child 1 and 2 that 1 and 2 will be POA for everything but they have added 4 as a replacement without 4's knowledge. 4 is insulted and upset and has refused to sign it. Parent just says to speak to 1 as though it's nothing to do with the parent. 4 has been on the phone to me saying they feel taken advantage of and good enough for all the hard work on a day to day basis but isn't deemed good enough to make any decisions.

It should be whoever the parent wants it to be - assuming that person is willing.

It's not up to anyone else.

I can't offer much advice but can sympathise with the situation as been through something similar. Parent wants to keep all siblings happy but siblings don't communicate amongst each other. While parent knows everything will fall to one sibling (female!) they insist the other is added jointly & severally. Even getting the POA signed turned into an absolute farce with it being posted backwards and forwards. Siblings live closer to each other than to parent but male sibling refused to meet up! Third sibling moved abroad, sometimes think they made the best choice, although they're golden child so could never do any wrong anyway.

Well 4 certainly isn't willing anymore. 2 sees parent every 6 weeks, 1 every 10 days or so but asks parent for petrol money to see them. 1 lives 6 miles away and is not involved in any health or financial decisions at present and has no idea about parent's health conditions because 4 does everything. If 4 ever asks 1 to do anything the answer is no, they can't.

There's a bit of confusion here over executors (of a will, when parent dies) and POA

It doesn't matter who executor is as that's just about someone appointed to follow parents will to distribute funds after they die

Whereas it does matter about who POA is

1. If 4 does majority of care then they should be at least jointly and severally for finances and property and lpa health and welfare with one other sibling that they can agree with

I'd parent decides 4 should not be POA at all, then I don't blame 4 for stepping back and saying great we can all share it equally now. And visiting once every x weeks same as others do . Don't take in the organising role either

Parent will be absolutely daft and solicitor would advise against it, to have 4 siblings who argue, as LPAs health and welfare
That's worse than having now POA in health and welfare and will cost more money to the parents estate
So if siblings 12 &3 agree on parent going into care home and 4 disagrees and believes home with care package is better for mum or a different care home - IF THE POAs disagree- adult social care cannot help here - it HAS togo to COP for a judge to decide as all are POAs. It's not a numbers game of more POAs decide they have to all agree. Then mum is left in limbo of waiting for 4-12 months for a judge to make a ruling. Every decision the family of POAs cannot agree on, would have to ultimately be resolved this way. It is nonsensical to have 4 warring siblings be a POA. That's why usually there is 2 and an expectation one will lead or that they will work together to at least debate and agree decision

Has 4 asked mum why she is not making her one of two LPAs in finance and property, and one of two LPAs jn Heath and welfare ?

I would absolutely say "well mum it's great you don't need my help anymore, after all these years caring for you, you say legally you trust 1 2 /and 3 more, so .." if she is excluded from POA. (Eg finances)

Same as if all 4 are appointed as LPA health and welfare. There is no way that will work if they disagree - the only way to try to resolve that is to share the care also equally.

Tell mum "if that's what you want you can ask 1,2 and 3 to do those for you, I'll just do your shopping once a fortnight from now on... 1 can sort ordering your medication, 2 can sort all your health appointments, 3 can sort any housework and upkeep issues with your house... I'd love to have my life back and glad that you are going to insist on my siblings sharing it equally- I'll leave that bit you you"

Whilst strictly speaking right now , "Things don't have to change" (4 can carry on doing everything) but why would she? I agree that it's a slap in the face to the main carer. It covers something to professionals.
And when mum does lose capacity, there's a whole lot of trouble ahead.

4 does everything but as 1 and 2 have LPA for everything 4 and 3 have no say even though 2 says he will consult with all others on decisions. 4 would want parent to stay at home with care if needed whereas 1, 2, and 4 would choose to put parent in a home. 1 and 2 have no healthcare knowledge in general and no idea about parent's conditions, treatment or medications. There are no specific instructions in the paperwork therefore all decisions fall to 1 and 2 who are individually and severally. Parent just thinks that 1 in the main will do everything if need be. They don't seem to have grasped what is involved and certainly doesn't understand what decisions have been made now and why and what decisions will be made if the need arises. It's as though it's all out of their control. They decided not to see a solicitor which is probably not wise. If POA needs to be invoked then 1 and 2 will be wanting 4 to provide all the information they need. 4 has access to parent's bank account for daily money needs like food and paying the gardener and physio and deals with the medical admin as well as the practical side of care. 1 and 2 are not on the bank account with the parent and do not have any access to the financial information either. They are completely in the dark. It's going to be a mess and very stressful all round if POA is needed. 4 will back off completely as 1 in particular damaged their mental health since childhood to the point of being NC. 4's MH is fine since being NC and not having to deal with their emotional abuse. 4 has refused to be a back up for health and welfare saying it's insulting to be only a back up after all the years of care they have provided for free.

In that case mum has made a rod for her back, it makes little sense for 4 to continue as her main carer in this specific situation for 4, as mum has basically said :-

a. She's doesn't trust 4 to do what in her best interests financially or welfare and

b. She trusts the other siblings more

And the other siblings have agreed they feel they are best people to make best interests decisions for her when the time comes.

People don't realise that being a power of attorney conveys a duty as well as a power though, whether that's to organise and take care of issues directly or to pay or organise someone else to.

Most POAs take on that supportive role way before person loses capacity (unless main carer is a spouse/ partner of same age as donor) so that they are familiar with it. So 1 & 2 best get learning...!

It’s about spreading the load! So 4 doesn’t do everything. It’s not sensible but often people are not. It’s not about not trusting 4.

My DGM is now in nursing home, with profound dementia.

3 of us 1, 2 & 3 - 1 & 2 had LPOA, 3 was signed up if demise of 1 or 2.
1 passed away - 2&3 re-signed documents.

Current LPOA -

2 - does finances
3 - does health and welfare.

Before DGM went into nursing home, 3, me, did all of the hospital appointments, all of the daily affairs, shopping and cleaning etc, banking, paying bills. 2 did nothing, just swanned around telling us all how much she loved DGM more than the rest of us. I'm the youngest of the 3, we went according to age. I had no problem with this. Let them have that responsibility.

2 and 3 (me) do not have any contact.

I actually do everything, pay nursing home fees, deal with all the that needs doing, on both finances and health and welfare.
2 doesn't get involved. If and only if, I need to I send an email and run it by 2.

I feel that there will be problems in the future, when DGM passes, she's very old. But I will deal with that when and if it happens.

LPOA is such an emotive area for family members. Do you all want the responsibility of LPOA as much as each other?

Family members that don't communicate is not the best option although it sometimes cannot be avoided, as in my situation.

All of you should sign the document as 1sts and 2nds, you just have to sort out the order.

We had the same problems regarding decision to have care at home or nursing home, 2 was adamant that DGM would stay at home with carers. When 1 sadly died and 3 (me), became LPOA for health and I immediately put DGM in nursing home. It was the best decision I made. DGM is happy, well cared for and now has a quality of life. 2 tried to stop me but couldn't.

@Iammatrix
How do you have access to bank accounts for DGzM if you don’t have Financial PofA? I have it for my DM. Siblings don’t. I have access to her accounts. Siblings don’t. So surely your sibling should have access to DGM’s accounts?

2 does not object, let's me get on with it and has emailed her LPOA to me so I use it.

I have to be so diplomatic!

DGMs best interests at heart.

I know that in the eyes of the law, me acting on 2s LPOA is not legit - finance - but 2 allows this.

Previously 2 has used DGMs money for own personal use.

I play the diplomatic game in order that my DGMs best interests are exercised.

What do I mean by diplomatic game?
I send the emails, I do the online assessments, I arrange the family visits, I do it all as I did before DGM went into Nursing home, 2 does nothing. I am totally financially independent, 2 understands that I have no need or desire for DGMs funds.

Each situation is unique but it's best to work with each other to find a way and not let it descend into chaos. Despite our differences.

4 do not step away, do what you can to represent your DM/DPs in the long term.

As a result of 2s stance I also have an eye on DGMs bank account, 2 knows I am watching.

Diplomacy!

I may have missed something. OP who are you to all these people? What's your role?

@Iammatrix
That’s not right, is it? So you actually, fraudulently, use the POA awarded to someone else? How do you do that? I had to go through a lot of hoops to prove who I was regarding use of POA.

The person that is LPOA for finance is not doing the role.

2, vicariously, hands power to me. I would happily legally take over, but it is a delicate situation as is the point of this thread, which is about the delicacy's of LPOA and family relationships, not fraud.

It's not
It absolutely is who you trust most to make decisions in your BI (best interests). It is entirely about legally formalising that this who you trust!!!

This elderly mum knows child 4 does everything right now for her and would need LPAs in H&W &/ LPAs F&P to continue with ease in that role should she lose capacity to decide on those matters . By the mum giving LPAs to the other siblings one of whom is NC with 4, this mum is exactly saying she doesn't trust 4 and

The sensible option would have been for the mum to give LPA h&w to 4 and another sibling and same with LPA finance and property (F&P) jointly and severally - so that there were two people able to step in and able to support (&check on!) each other

You do not "share the load" by giving LPAs to siblings that disagree or don't talk to the one doing all the practical actual care help. That's ridiculous

Riser is right you cannot use the LPA of someone else with the bank pretending you are that person - it's is fraud and should anything go wrong , a level of liability and oaosaibke charges
You can however act as a financial book keeper and support to organise bills under the guidance of the LPA in finances and property - ie. Get it in writing that as LPa she has given you 3rd party bank mandate or access to clients online banking to manage the day to day financial bills and payments under their overall supervision
.

Shared POA - you're all the children of this person, and so you're equal in this respect.

Can you specify that all DCs' assent will be required for big decisions such as expenditure over X amount, or moving house, going into a nursing home etc?

It doesn't work like that and is a terrible idea

You have one or more LPAs in finance and property
If you don't have them jointly and severally (ie can act act independently ) and have 2 or more who are jointly then it causes a huge headache, no internet banking can be done and all have to turn up at the bank together to change any instructions as they cannot act independently of each other

One person can't drop out and say U.K. too busy as am at work, nor can the remove themselves from the LPA, it has to go back to court for a new LPA

Always do jointly and severally of appointing more than one POA

I was going to say 4 but I see it's been decided. Sounds like a slap in the face for 4.

I have had LPAs for three elderly relatives over the years. In one case I had to take the decision whether or not to admit her to a home. Difficult to see how someone who only visits once a month can know enough about the elderly person to know whether they need residential care or not and all the other decisions that need making.

Most people who are acting as attorney for someone else don't have to get hands-on involved in day-to-day care ime. It's more about managing someone's money and trying to get the best quality of life for them. But I can imagine that if 4 continues as carer s/he will be expected to report on everything relevant — expenditure, health situation, any incidents and events — and that could be very uncomfortable.

Is 4 being paid to look after the parent or is it just the usual. situation that the daughter who lives closest takes on the burden? In 4's shoes I'd be ruddy angry with the parent for picking 2. A wild guess: 2's a man, isn't he?

Tiani4 is absolutely right: make it jointly and severally so that one person can act NOW if required.