POA-who should it be?

[POAPITA]

Name changed for this.

Parent has full capacity. Physically disabled but is relatively independent but needs support and has a carer. Various health conditions but nothing serious or life threatening. In their 80s.

4 adult children:

1 works full time, married, has own health difficulties, adult children. Lives 6 miles away. Sees parent twice a month or so. Rings once a week sometimes less. No medical knowledge or awareness of parental finances.

2 works full time, married, spouse has several physical health problems and is awaiting surgery. Phones a few times a week. Regularly visits to do DIY type jobs, takes parent out for lunch/dinner about every 4-6 weeks. Lives 100 miles away. No knowledge of medical or financial situation.

1. Works full time, young adult child. Married. Phones weekly or so. Visits a few times a year. Last visited in the spring. Lives 200 miles away. No knowledge of medical or financial situation.

4 Full time carer for parent. Primary and teenage children, visits daily for general household tasks like cooking, cleaning, laundry, and phones twice a day or more for emotional and sometimes financial or practical support. Handles day to day finances. Attends medical appointments with parent, liaises with healthcare professionals and has healthcare background. Lives within walking distance. First port of call for support.

Who is best placed to have POA?

I'm seeing 4 for a coffee this afternoon at her house and she's going to show me what she's been asked to sign so I'll have more information then and will update.

I can't remember who asked what my involvement was but I'm a family friend who loves them all but I am close to 4 and have daily contact with her. I rarely see the others as we aren't close these days and we see each other once a year at the most. They grew up, got married, moved away etc but 4 has always stayed close. I am probably biased towards 4 because she does so much for her parent on a daily basis and I see how hard she works to enable her parent to have a good life despite the disabilities that are why care is needed.

I'm glad she has you.

Pity they're not using a solicitor. Actually, I thought you had to use a solicitor these days: the first one I had was an EPA which was very easy to obtain but I'd understood that they'd tightened up because of the way it was being abused. A decent solicitor will look at the situation and might offer advice.

I blame the parent. Parents are really good at taking the care offered by daughters for granted and giving the power to the sons. It's infuriating.

Right, I'll try to explain it now.

1 and 2 have LPA for finances and health jointly and severally. LPA for finances starts as soon as it is registered and not once parent is not able to make decisions.

3 has nothing to do with any of it.

4 has been put down as a replacement for health. 4 was told nothing about this. The witness has signed the box next to 4's saying they are witness to 4's signature but 4 hasn't signed it and knew nothing about it at the time of signing.

1 has no intention of getting involved in day to day finances or health and neither does 2 as 2 is miles away and works full time with an ill spouse.

Parent had no idea that the LPA for finances started on registration of the forms. They thought things would change only if and when they became unable to make decisions.

2 has asked the parent for all financial details and name of the GP, medication etc.

There are no preferences or instructions for either finance or health. It's just a case of 1 and/or 2 deciding everything. They have said they will consult 3 and 4 on things but there is no legal obligation to do so.

There is nothing listed under health with regards to resuscitation wishes. Parent has signed to say 1 and 2 can make those decisions.

Parent did not know anything about preferences and instructions or that finances would start immediately. 1 and 2 do not have any access to the parental finances. 4 does for every day expenditure and paying bills like the gardener, physio, online shopping etc. parent believed they were doing the right thing and took what 1 and 2 said as gospel.

Parent is now very upset because things seem far more complicated than they thought and they now have to think about their wishes properly. They are also upset because 4 has refused to be a replacement for health.

1, 2 and 3 are of course very happy for 4 to do all the day to day care and life admin but from what I understand 4 will have no legal say in anything should the parent be unable to make their own decisions.

So, parent is upset and confused by it all, 4 is upset and concerned that parent hasn't understood what they are signing and pissed off that the witness has signed before 4 even knew about being s replacement and 1 and 2 are going to be angry that 4 has refused to be a replacement and has raised lots of questions that are making the parent reconsider things. Parent is wishing they'd seen a solicitor.

I think that's it anyway!

Also, parent is upset that 4 will just leave 1 and 2 to it but 4 has explained that that is what the LPA does-gives the power of decision making to 1 and 2 with 3 and 4 having no legal duty to be involved.

4 thinks 3 is wise to keep out of it but also annoyed at the willingness to let the other 3 do all the visiting while 3 merrily has no involvement.

There is no malice from the parent towards 4. They just thought they were doing the right thing.

Sounds very messy.
an LPA can be revoked if the parent has capacity and would like to go through the forms them swlf with someone to explain each step the forms just need to be completed.
A new LPA can then be completed and I would advise that the parent does this with a solicitor.
It needs to be transparent with everyone being aware what is happening

@Anunusualfamily is right

I'd parent hasn't thought it through she can ask foe these draft LPA applications to be revoked and refuse it even before it goes anywhere

If I were 4 I would withdraw And say "have at it to 1&2, you take over now and thanks for giving me my life back!! "

If mum asked me i would explain "well if I'm not who you now are appointing as your LPA H&W and your LPA f&p ( finance and property) (even if jointly and severally with another sibling) then you clearly don't trust me to make decisions in your best interest/ when you are unable to, and obviously don't value me and my support so far, so thanks for that and I'll hand it all over now. You speak to1&2..."

Mum can fix it or not. But she's gone badly about it

The thing is- whilst mum has capacity- if 4 carries on and doesn't step back now 1&2 will think it's all very easy and want to then be "bosses of 4" at some point and have no idea nor involvement in mums needs, health and finances.

Nothing will be in mums best interests later on , all defaulting before then to 4 who won't have any legal standing and all the hard work side of it.

Let them (1&2) do the job now for a bit and see how tough it is. They'll soon change their minds

Whilst an LPA has months and months to go through courts- 4 can let 1&2 have a hard lesson in what the responsibility actually means way before mum has lost capacity

Id put money on them withdrawing

Anyway 4 can relax and send serials to 1&2 &" say here you go, off you go and glad you are doing your share now "

Maybe don't say those things but say
Thank-you for saying you want to take on this responsibility , her GP is x, her (list multiple medical teams) are y and these are the appointments "
"And her bank is x and thank-you for taking this over after I've done this with mum's consent for G years...
Btw you need to order her shopping delivery weekly and bills for her here is the spreadsheet .."

1 and 2 wouldn't do it. 1 especially would be too busy and 2 is too far away to be any practice help. During covid 1 wanted to join households with the parent and was annoyed that 4 was a joined household instead. 1 was an essential worker and the parent very vulnerable to covid so this would have put the parent at great risk. 4 was shielded and was the least risk to the parent. It would be interesting to see what would happen if 4 did say that she was stepping back and letting 1 and 2 get on with it. Nuclear fall out I expect. 1 has already said they are too busy to take the parent to a hospital appointment next month. 4 can't do it because it's at school drop off time and quite far away. 4 would love even just a weekend off to catch up with everything at home but there's no one else that will do anything.

If 4 doesn't step back and say I'm handing it over to you now as you will be POAs, then the POAs will have no idea what they're taking on & will have a responsibility for

It's the perfect opportunity for 4 to step back - all of which is as a result of 1&2 and mum's choice

4 doesn't need to think about consequences, that's now 1&2's issue

I bet 1&2 withdraw from LPAs or mum changes her mind after 4 steps back

I'm going to suggest to 4 that she does that and see what happens. Parent won't be happy about it but that's what they have chosen. Trial of 2 weeks perhaps. 4 gets a good rest and can get on top of her own things and 1 and 2 will have to get on with it. 4 is too nice though and doesn't want to upset the parent so I doubt she will do it.

There is no malice from the parent towards 4. They just thought they were doing the right thing.

Gosh, it sounds like a real mess. I'm making some quiet assumptions about the sexes of all involved ... (you let slip that Child 2 is a man, and I'm guessing the parent is his mother, and that Child 4 is the youngest daughter).

Could the family solicitor be called upon to make a home visit, to explain to the parent what is involved? It would cost, but it might stop the parent from messing stuff up as a result of not wanting upset anyone (I've seen this happen with elderly women of an earlier generation).

While on the information of your OP, @POAPITA I thought that a joint LPA in which all 4 siblings have an equal say would have been a solution. But if Child 4 and Children 1 & 2 have little to do with each other, that's not a solution.

Child 4 is justified in just withdrawing her [?] day to day assistance. It may cause the parent and Children 1 & 2 to consider the practicalities. Which is, after all, what a power of attorney (or whatever they're called nowadays) is for.

I think your parent needs at least two POAs jointly and severally so that can make decisions without consulting each other. Sometimes decisions need to be made quickly, especially if capacity is lost and being a long distance away is not ideal - very hard to sign documents quickly.

When my mum had a fall and went into hospital my brother was abroad on holiday. It was the first week of Covid lockdown in March 2020 and it took him three weeks to get a flight home as his flight was cancelled in the initial panic. Decisions had to be made very quickly when it became apparent that mum could no longer live on her own at home and the hospital social worker needed input from the POA. Luckily mum had appointed all three of her children so my sister and I were able to act on her behalf, otherwise the social worker would have sent her to a random care home which was miles from where we lived. My sister and I were able to chose a lovely home close to us where we could drop off personal items and treats during the lockdowns when visitors were not allowed.

Is it possible to suggest this to your parent, siblings 2and 4 both being attorneys?

Is 2 male and the rest or the other more obvious ones are female?

And the DP are older generation so have chosen the male.

4 absolutely needs to do this. More fool them if they don't!

If 4 doesn't step back at this stage, when it's within everyone's gift to make changes, then they are a fool.

Now is ideal to let the consequence of the action be felt, so things can be better arranged for everyone.

This. Absolutely this. It’s important they know you will not be the donkey for your siblings requests if they want to make them POA. How can anyone 100 miles away make informed decisions ?!

2 makes sense, they are the only one on good terms with all siblings and visit/speak regularly.

It avoids piling more of the burden on 4.

If offers protection to 4 against allegations of financial impropriety from 1 and 3.

It doesn't affect day to day arrangements with 4

Sorry thought I had read the whole thread but only the first page had loaded 🤦

All hell will break loose if 4 doesn't do the usual things. The parent is used to 4 being there almost every day. If 4 doesn't go the parent really misses her and no one else visits or helps out. Visits by others are fleeting. 1 does nothing when they visit. There's a friend who visits and equally elderly neighbours who wave and maybe go over for a coffee or chat outside for a few minutes. Parent is completely dependent on others to leave the house and can't do things like shop or attend the GP or dentist on their own. 4 feels very guilty if they can't visit or help out if ill or the dc are ill or they have their own commitments. It's lucky for them all that 4 doesn't work.

Why on earth has the dm done this then? If so dependent on 4 why choose 1&2 as poa?
Is 4 just expected to keep being the good wee helper and do what they're told?

But if 4 doesn't take a stand now by shining a light on the consequences of the action, then they're potentially going to be stuck in this situation for years.

Hence why if they DON'T briefly step back now, they are a fool

It avoids piling more of the burden on 4.

If offers protection to 4 against allegations of financial impropriety from 1 and 3.

It doesn't affect day to day arrangements with 4

None of this is true

It does affect 4
She is ahead informally managing her mums finances and buying her things she needs, so she won't be able to do that with ease if she's not a POA

Also she's the one taking mum to all the health appointments - so it makes no sense to appoint others as LPA in health and welfare.

As said before 4 needs to take a stand (& step back) now whilst mum can change her POAs and whilst 1&2 can show how much or little they will do if and when mum loses capacity to make or remember health decisions.

Also not having POA doesn't protect you from allegations of financial impropriety it just ties your hands. 4 needs at least LPA health and welfare and to be one of the two with LPA finance and property.

4 absolutely needs to take a step back. Send 1&2 the list of jobs she currently does and ask them to arrange them. Then be unavailable for two weeks. Perhaps you could encourage her to have a holiday or go for loads of coffees/days out.

The DM has behaved foolishly and should still consult a solicitor to clear the mess up and receive impartial advice.