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Legal matters

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you have any legal concerns we suggest you consult a solicitor.

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Original poster

Child arrangement order can I get one?

38 replies

Mummybear1993 · 12/04/2022 11:33

My ex has decided not to have contact with the children directly or indirectly whilst they are minors. He has written this in a solicitor's letter to me and a letter to the children.
I want to go on holiday. My ex gives his permission but he wants me to give him at least 28 days notice every time we want to leave the country for a holiday and know departure airport, arrival airport, date of hol and where we are staying. He will provide the consent letter not less than 14 days before.
I feel this is controlling given that it doesn't affect his contact with the children, as he doesn't want to see them.
Just had a MIAM session and they will sign the C100 form. Given we agree on where the children will reside will the court agree to a child arrangement order?

OP posts:

Collaborate · 12/04/2022 12:15

It's worth a try. The benefit is that you're not always anxious when booking a holiday abroad.

Mia85 · 12/04/2022 12:17

Does he have parental responsibility?

Original poster

Mummybear1993 · 12/04/2022 12:21

Thank you.
Yes he does have parental responsibility.
I emailed him asking for a letter. He didn't reply directly to me. I received a letter via a solicitor stating what he wanted from me each time we go abroad.
I just want to be free from him and his wife and go on holiday when we wish to without having to ask for permission from him when he wants nothing to do with them.

OP posts:

RedWingBoots · 12/04/2022 12:24

Depending on the Child Arrangement Order and with the fact he has a solicitor, so can afford a barrister, he could easily get the same terms written into the Child Arrangements Order.

trevthecat · 12/04/2022 12:28

I have 2 dc with ex surname, I am now remarried. He is no contact. When we go abroad I just bring their birth certificates (to show i am their parent) to show at passport control and never had a problem. How would he know if you went on holiday? He is no contact so just don't tell him and get on with it!

RedWingBoots · 12/04/2022 12:29

I should add I know people with similar in their Child Arrangements Order or longer notice periods.

So both parents have to arrange holidays abroad months in advance.

RedWingBoots · 12/04/2022 12:31

@trevthecat and myself are saying don't both with a Child Arrangements Order but from different view points.

Original poster

Mummybear1993 · 12/04/2022 12:36

Isn't it illegal to go abroad without their permission if they have PR?
I just thought a child arrangement order would give us the freedom from someone so controlling and have it set in writing his decision not to see the children.
Are you saying it's not worth the hassle?
Should I just ask for his permission?
Who even checks these things?

OP posts:

Mia85 · 12/04/2022 12:40

@Mummybear1993

Isn't it illegal to go abroad without their permission if they have PR? I just thought a child arrangement order would give us the freedom from someone so controlling and have it set in writing his decision not to see the children. Are you saying it's not worth the hassle? Should I just ask for his permission? Who even checks these things?

There's two issues on the law. The first is that it is a criminal offence to take a child out of the country without the other parent's consent www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/37/section/1 though it's difficult to imagine that it's in the public interest to prosecute a parent who has sole care of the children for going on holiday.

The second is that you might be asked at the border either in the UK or wherever you are travelling to. Some countries are much more likely to ask than others. That creates anxiety and uncertainty as it depends on the decisions of the border official, even if most of the time you'll just be waved through without a worry.

trevthecat · 12/04/2022 12:45

In 9 years we have been to lots of different countries with the kids and just brought the bc. I have never been asked for anything other than the bc. I don't even have his details to ask for permission! They want to change their surname to my dh so soon we will all be the same and not have to bring anything else

Igmum · 12/04/2022 12:45

I'm a single parent, also NC now - violence then DD's choice when she was old enough. Travelled abroad many times and never been asked for a letter of consent. When we were going through the Family Court there was a standard stipulation that I couldn't take DD overseas for more than 28 days without permission. I have to say that your ex's demands, plus his refusal to see his own kids, seem really freaky and controlling. Slightly horrified to learn that others have also experienced this

AHungryCaterpillar · 12/04/2022 12:47

Can I ask how they would even know? My ex has pr for only my older children but isn’t on the youngest bc so doesn’t have pr for them, how would anywhere know that? Couldn’t you just say he doesn’t have pr/isn’t on the bc, how would anyone know otherwise? 🤷‍♀️

HotDogKetchup · 12/04/2022 12:50

That’s so intrusive, definitely about control. What’s his reasoning for this???

Original poster

Mummybear1993 · 12/04/2022 13:15

Glad it's not just me thinking it's controlling behaviour.
Since he remarried contact reduced and now he has decided he wants it to stop. They have a 3.5 year old together, so the children can't even see each other.
My partner said just fake the letter. How would they even know and it's not that I am taking them out of school.
I just really don't like the stipulations of 28 days notice and 14 days prior and all that. His wife is a solicitor so perhaps that's why it's all come about.
I just don't know why he can't reply to an email and would rather pay for an official letter from a solicitor. Is it scare tactics to get me to do as I am told?
I keep reading up on the child arrangements order and it does seem to be for only if you can't agree and the courts will make the decision. Just wish there was something in place so that I didn't by law have to ask for his written consent but also didn't have to feel the need to get a child arrangement order in place.
Why isn't the law in keeping with modern times?

OP posts:

Mia85 · 12/04/2022 13:33

If you want a court order, you can also get a specific issue order to only cover the issue of holidays rather than going for a child arrangements order.

I do think there should be some (easier) way of removing/relinquishing the day-to-day parts of PR for parents who aren't involved in their child's life.

AHungryCaterpillar · 12/04/2022 13:37

My partner said just fake the letter. How would they even know and it's not that I am taking them out of school.

Honestly this is what I would do, I don’t even care if people jump on me for saying it but why on earth should you have to ask for an absent fathers permission?! My ex hasn’t seen the children in 18m there’s not a chance in hell am I asking for his permission to take MY children abroad. If you don’t have contact you shouldn’t have any “rights”

HotDogKetchup · 12/04/2022 13:39

Do you think it’s because he’s very important and he can’t possibly cobble a letter together without sufficient notice? Or rather that’s how both he and his wife view him and his time?

It’s so pathetic.

What are the consequences of you faking it? Given he sounds like a total dick would he take legal action just to assert his authority? That said, I don’t know much about family law but I can’t see why any court would side with him on this. He has zero contact so it doesn’t impact him at all, if anything it’s detrimental to his children and restrictive to you.

wakeupandshakeup · 12/04/2022 13:51

I find this very controlling and something my stbx would do.. tell him f-all

Original poster

Mummybear1993 · 12/04/2022 13:55

@HotDogKetchup

Do you think it’s because he’s very important and he can’t possibly cobble a letter together without sufficient notice? Or rather that’s how both he and his wife view him and his time?

It’s so pathetic.

I think they do believe they are very important. Can't look after the children as they stated previously they would like their quality time as a family of three of them. To think he is a primary school teacher and former head teacher really gets under my skin! Would the specific court issue cover all future holidays? Given he isn't opposing anything I worry he is doing just enough to keep it out of the light of the court but just enough to annoy me and exert his control and the fact that he is being what I would describe as a sperm donor.

OP posts:

RedWingBoots · 12/04/2022 13:57

I just thought a child arrangement order would give us the freedom from someone so controlling and have it set in writing his decision not to see the children

You have an "agreement" anyway so what more do you want the Court to give you?

Going to Court can make it a lot worse for you especially if he's a dick.

He may decide because he's paying for a barrister he wants to see the children every other weekend. He will be able to easily get this in the Order. He will simply tell the Court a sob story why he thought it was best for him to not see them but now he sees differently. Once the Order is in place he will randomly cancel on you as it is a way for him to exert more control over you and punish you for taking him to Court.

Original poster

Mummybear1993 · 12/04/2022 13:59

Here is the letter from the solicitor...

OP posts:

titchy · 12/04/2022 14:02

Technically if you go abroad without his permission you are kidnapping them. Most border control staff won't check. But if they did you could be prevented from taking the child abroad. So it's a risk - up to you whether you want to take it.

Don't FFS fake a letter - I'd imagine the consequences of that could be very serious.

Attempt a CAO. Failing that you'd have to try a SPO each time you went abroad.

Mia85 · 12/04/2022 14:08

You have an "agreement" anyway so what more do you want the Court to give you?

If she gets a CAO saying that the children live with her then she can take the children out of the country for a month at a time (subject to anything else put in the court order) www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1989/41/section/13

But the process of applying for the CAO might well provoke him to apply for contact for the reasons you say (especially if he is paying maintenance) so might not be worth the risk.

Original poster

Mummybear1993 · 12/04/2022 14:13

I agree it seems to much even when he does grant permission. It's just the way he is, I feel, being awkward about that. I almost feel I am begging for his permission.

I doubt he will ever want contact. See letters below as to his decision. Crazy.

OP posts:

prh47bridge · 12/04/2022 14:16

I see we are getting the usual pile on of people saying they have travelled abroad without the consent of everyone with PR. Most people don't have a problem but every year a few people are refused boarding or find they are refused entry at their destination.

I would certainly try for a CAO saying the children live with you. That will allow you to take them out of the country for up to a month without needing his consent.

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