Emergency prohibited steps order - changing schools

[confused45678]

Morning folks. My ex and I split 4.5 years ago. In Feb this year a child arrangement order was granted whereby our child (nearly 10 years old) lives with me and sees their dad every other weekend.
I offered more time, overnights in the week, our for tea in the week. He declined, and said this to CAFCASS for their section 7.

Since then our child gets upset every other weekend when coming home because they know they won't see their dad for another 2 weeks. I've tried and tried and tried to have him come down regularly in the week but he tries once and doesn't do it again. He's never done parents evenings, sports days, being off when they're poorly, dentist, doctors etc.

He's said to our child that if they want to see him more then they'll have to come and live with him, that's the only way he can see them more.

The last few months have become completely untenable, child wants to go live with dad because she knows its the only way they can go and see him more often than 4 days a month. They've been so angry, lashing out, crying, shouting that dad doesn't care about them etc. It's gotten so bad that last week I said if she wants to try living with her dad then fine, I can't think of any other way to help and it breaks my heart seeing the anger and the tears all the time. I love my child more than anyone in the world.

We recently bought a house in August and my child started at the local school, in year 5. They've had a great first parents evening, settled well. When they went to stop with her dad he'd told her them they have to move schools, my child said to me they don't want to as they like the current school. They have to go to breakfast club or afterschool club because there are family in the village to pick them up every day. They would be in wrap around care if they moved schools. I believe they've probably now been convinced to move schools as dad's neighbours child goes to one near her dad's house and they're friends, even though they won't be in the same year.

I appreciate this was very long. Sorry. My question is she's just got settled at a new school, would I be eligible for an emergency prohibited steps order? He has already applied with the LA to move her to one local to him (we live 10 miles apart). I'm nervous that if I apply for a regular prohibited steps, the move will go ahead and the court won't want to change her schools back. 2 school moves in 8 weeks seems awful on our child, even if she doesn't yet realise the implications!

You don't know how ONS statistics are calculated. They are an anonymous survey.

The problem with trying to find domestic abuse everywhere and crying wolf is that women who are being abused have less chance of being heard as it's harder to spot them. And the ones who cry wolf lose all their credibility.

My ex is now brushed off by medical professionals/social services which puts our daughter at risk as she has a reputation. What happens if my ex and our daughter end up in a relationship with an actual domestic abuser and everyone rolls their eyes? That puts our daughter and her at risk.

I am not saying it's right but maybe he had a bad day. My mum pushed me when I was a child. I think she is the most amazing mum in the world and I know she is not an abuser. I strongly feel we need more of a sense of perspective. Especially when it's about children's futures.

[quote DebbieHarrysCheekbones]@charliesbookmarker
Glad someone else has called BS[/quote]
Yeah I think @Skeptadad statistics need looking at. The WHO states that 1 in 3 women around the world (30%) are being or subjected to physical or sexual abuse. granted that around the world.

However the ONS states this The police recorded 206,492 violence against the person offences flagged as domestic abuse-related between March and June 2020, a 9% increase compared with the same period in 2019

Here is a link to the page www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/domesticabuseduringthecoronaviruscovid19pandemicenglandandwales/november2020

Here is another article form womens aid for for @Skeptadad to read. Their figures show its 77 -98% men on women violence.

I would also like to know if @Skeptadad deducted the women from the men in his 'research'; as that would skew figures up considerably if he hadn't

@Skeptadad

You don't know how ONS statistics are calculated. They are an anonymous survey.

The problem with trying to find domestic abuse everywhere and crying wolf is that women who are being abused have less chance of being heard as it's harder to spot them. And the ones who cry wolf lose all their credibility.

My ex is now brushed off by medical professionals/social services which puts our daughter at risk as she has a reputation. What happens if my ex and our daughter end up in a relationship with an actual domestic abuser and everyone rolls their eyes? That puts our daughter and her at risk.

I am not saying it's right but maybe he had a bad day. My mum pushed me when I was a child. I think she is the most amazing mum in the world and I know she is not an abuser. I strongly feel we need more of a sense of perspective. Especially when it's about children's futures.

@skeptadad its very rare for women to 'cry wolf'. Watch out your misogyny is showing.

No decent dad would a child out of school like that - especially in these circumstances. Children need stability - school offers that when parents are separated.

We are in the UK one of the safest countries in the world. You can't amalgamate domestic abuse figures from strongly patriarchal societies abroad and infer relevance to the UK.

Okay, 206,492 people over a three month period so we multiply that by 4 to get an average annual figure = 825,968 (generous as there will be repeat incidents).

We then divide by the UKs population of 67 million and work our the percentage = 1.23% of the UKs population have reported incidents to the police. That's why I prefer the anonymous survey as lots of domestic abuse goes unreported.

I would rather not read articles from Women's Aid. As Dr Adrienne Barnett (Women's Aid) states:

""the basis of constructivism is that social reality is not rooted in objective fact but is constituted, created, constructed. And so our data in research, we don't go up and collect data, we're creating data."

No, I added men and women in my ONS figure.

Here is the link for percentage of domestic abuse allegations in family court (62%):
amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/01/the-guardian-view-on-the-family-courts-secrecy-isnt-working?fbclid=IwAR1Pp_JsaDMNslKNktIX1odcb_iuoD8RiRPN5OYv_xSP4gf_ZcGMtKB1llU

If it's rare for women to cry wolf why are 62% of family court cases alleging domestic abuse when the average figures are so low?

Lots of mums I suspect on this forum with new partners with children will know how endemic this is in family court and know there non-abusive partners have been victim to wolf criers.

Sorry its been a hectic evening. Shes now back with me. So thank you everyone who gave advice.

@skeptadad I initiated the original court proceedings after he was coming and going as and when he fancied for a couple of hours at a time to see her. She was confused, hurting and always wondering when the next time she was seeing him was going to be. I wanted something stable for her. Tried mediation initially as you're supposed to, wasn't planning to have to end up in court, but he refused mediation. It was heartbreaking seeing her say goodbye not knowing if she was going to see him the next day, the next week or in two weeks. Throughout the process offered lots of time for him, I just wanted structure so she knew where she was going to be and when she got to spend time with him. I appreciate plenty of people can lie on here and I 100% agree there are crappy parents regardless of gender, but I really have tried my best to get as much contact as possible. He's refused each time while playing games with her that the only way she can see him more is if she lived there. Its utterly heartbreaking but the downside is the is then angry and lashing out because of it, and she then blames me because she can't take her frustrations out anywhere else. I came from a home with divorced parents but I have a good relationship with both so had good role models for this, but its an uphill battle when the other person is so unreasonable.

@Skeptadad

If it's rare for women to cry wolf why are 62% of family court cases alleging domestic abuse when the average figures are so low?

Lots of mums I suspect on this forum with new partners with children will know how endemic this is in family court and know there non-abusive partners have been victim to wolf criers.

If it changes your opinion of me, I actually did report a few incidences that took place after I left to the police at the time they happened. But its also very hard in a relationship where there's any abuse to fully understand sometimes that someone is abusive or their actions are abusive. Both men and women obviously, although men reporting abuse is most likely a lot lower.

What a shame this thread has been completely derailed. By a man who seems to be making it about his own personal story and how right he is 🙄

OP I wish you good luck. Do get proper advice as I suggested in my previous post.

I don't understand this. You have a court order in place. If he wants to change that and to residency then it's up to him to apply. Your child is 9. I'm afraid you need to be firm with her that this is how it is. This is also not about your DD, this is about him having control. You must realise that.

Tell him to apply to court for a variation if he wishes to change the current arrangements. Don't go along with his ridiculous plans please!

@Skeptadad

If it's rare for women to cry wolf why are 62% of family court cases alleging domestic abuse when the average figures are so low?

Lots of mums I suspect on this forum with new partners with children will know how endemic this is in family court and know there non-abusive partners have been victim to wolf criers.

Because women often dont report. I never reported it when my ex strangled me.

According to the ONS an estimated 1.6 million women aged 16 to 74 years experienced domestic abuse in the last year (ONS, 2020). However, it is important to note that these data do not take into account important context and impact information, such as whether the violence caused fear, who the repeat victims were and who experienced violence in a context of power and control. When these factors are taken into account the gendered nature of domestic abuse becomes much more apparent.

Also according to the CSEW (Crime Survey for England and Wales) data for the year ending March 2018, only 18% of women who had experienced partner abuse in the last 12 months reported the abuse to the police.

Just like 1 in sexual assaults dont get reported in the U.K ( and its probably higher if the women never went to hospital as there is simply no record.

And I am not surprised you dont like reading from Womens Aid, an organisation that dedicates it self to helping women and children as it doesn't fit your narrative that women are liars.

All these women are lying are they?

@Skeptadad

Yes Pinkyxx, it doesn't sound like he is acting in a child centric way. If you thought it was reasonable you were both part of child's life why didn't you go for shared care? Or did you think it was safer for your child to have your ex partners influence minimized (which is the stance that took me to shared care so I can understand that).

@Skeptadad I'd have agreed shared care however this was taken off the table by his moving 2 hours away and the court ultimately refusing it. He was unwilling to consider anything other than the following options:

1. Our child live with him full time
2. I facilitate contact ''on demand'' - i.e. he tells me when he wants contact, how long, and I agree / make arrangements to enable it.

As I wouldn't (couldn't?) agree to either of his options, he took me to court on the basis I was ''alienating'' , ''dangerous'' and ''mentally unstable''. He made some heinous false allegations, which thankfully were relatively easy to disprove even if costly and time consuming. He is a nasty man, violent and left me in lifelong pain from the injuries his temper inflicted. I could have cited his violence, his abuse, shown them the disgusting messages and threats he sent me instead I tried to focus on our child. I wanted to believe his abuse of me was specific to me and now we were apart it would stop ( I was wrong). Despite having minimal to no information from me on his abusive behaviour, social services were still involved by the court given his own conduct and they felt it best she spends minimal time with him as he demonstrated he was incapable of understanding our child's needs may be separate to his wants so the court ordered eow 1 night plus a few days in the hols. As one social worker said to me ''he just wants to destroy you''. Shared care could not have worked with the way he behaves, and it was naïve of me to think it ever could.

I was still very traumatized at the time we were in court and didn't really appreciate the impact his abuse had had on me. I thought I could shake it all off, a naïve sense I was at last ''free'' if you like. He’s continued to harass me, send abusive messages, verbally abuse me at handovers, make false allegations, threaten me, and worst of all use our child as a pawn. I've watched the damage he's done / continues to do to our child and in retrospect I at times wonder if it would have been best for him to have no contact at all, however this goes against my strongly held belief a child needs a Father. It's contradictory yes but 2 opposing notions can co-exist. I try not to think in binary terms as reality tends to be more nuanced. Despite everything, my ex is not all bad, no one is and it’s important to acknowledge the good no matter how limited it is. With time, I've had to face the fact that the best outcome I could hope for was to limit his impact on our child.

I realize you were falsely accused and having been falsely accused of things myself I get how awful that must have been for you but please do understand that the vast majority of abuse happens behind closed doors. No one knew I was being abused. No one. I lied to my dentist, to the GP, to the midwife, I lied & lied to cover up every injury. Why? I feared for my life & that of our child. It only came out a year after he’d left me when he assaulted me in broad day light and a member of the public called the police. It does a disserve to those who have faced to abuse to make sweeping statements as to the prevalence of abuse, or indeed that ''reasonable'' mums don't end up in court is a little difficult for some to read. I was reasonable, 'reasonable' doesn't keep you out of court, nor does it prevent a child being damaged / dragged into vendettas.

I can relate to what OP's saying, and the behavior in her child resonates with me as our child behaved this way when faced with similar choices.

OP, you need to pull all this back. You allowed your dd to leave because he is a shit dad.

Invest in counselling for her and keep her at home before this turns in to an even worse situation. Tbh I dont get why you have done this either.

@charliesbookmarker

OP, you need to pull all this back. You allowed your dd to leave because he is a shit dad.

Invest in counselling for her and keep her at home before this turns in to an even worse situation. Tbh I dont get why you have done this either.

She is now home. We can continue with the counselling we already had in place. Its very difficult when her dad says "why you going to counselling, there's nothing wrong with you" etc. And I understand people don't get why I did this, but all I can say is when you're faced day in day out with a child who is desperate to see the other parent but the other parent refuses to facilitate any extra contact it really does grind you down when the child is then angry, hurt, lashing out at you. If youve not been in the position you're probably sceptical but this past year has been the worst of my life because I've tried everything I can to help her and he's not bothered about making an extra effort. Honestly I felt stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Are you the op?

Sorry op wrong thread

Op, just read it through
Is it just you and your child at home or do you have a partner living with you both?

We recently bought a house in August and my child started at the local school, in year 5

Have you moved further away since the contact order? Did your ex agree to school move or are you in an area of middle school system so all children move at this stage?

Op how far do you live from your ex?

Is this the case - you moved substantially further away from your ex to be with new partner?

@Skeptadad

It's not hard you just divide the ONS statistics for domestic abuse by the population of the UK. In fact its 3.4%.

This is about children and finding a way forward and you are the one DebbieHarrysCheekbones that starting making this about domestic abuse.

The England & Wales Crime Survey only covers England and Wales - the clue is in the name. Furthermore, it only covers victims aged 16-74. Dividing its figures by the total UK population is wrong. Indeed, we don't have to do any calculation to determine prevalence. The figures are right there in the survey. 5.5% of adults report being the victims of domestic abuse. As the survey shows that there are around twice as many female victims as male, that means 7.5% of women are victims of domestic violence.

These figures are for the population from age 16-74. Much of that age range is rarely seen in the family courts. If we focus in on that range (still using the crime survey figures), we find that the figures for domestic abuse are significantly higher, particularly for women. The peak age range for women to be victims of domestic abuse is 20-24 - 15% of women in this age range report abuse. Looking at the entire age range usually involved in family court cases, we see that around 10% of women and 4.5% of men are victims of domestic abuse. So, if we ignore any other factors, we would expect around 10% of cases to involve a female victim and around 4.5% of cases to involve a male victim. Since it is rare for both to be victims, we can add those figures together to find that around 14%-15% of family court cases are likely to involve a victim of domestic abuse.

However, that figure assumes that domestic abuse occurs at the same rate in family court cases as in the population generally. Relationships are much more likely to break down if there is domestic abuse. Once a relationship has broken down, disputes over the children are more likely to end up in court if there has been domestic abuse. It therefore follows that we would expect a much higher figure for domestic abuse in family court cases than we see amongst the general population. Unfortunately, the statistics available don't tell us how much higher that figure should be. Four times the figure for the general population (which is roughly where we are according to the Guardian) doesn't seem unreasonable.

Do people make false allegations of domestic violence in court? Of course they do. And, whilst the courts try to filter out the false allegations, they will sometimes get it wrong. That will, of course, cut both ways - some true allegations will be treated as false just as some false allegations will be treated as true. But there is absolutely no evidence to support your thesis that the vast majority of domestic abuse allegations in family courts are false. Your reasoning is fundmentally flawed.

Hi, no I lived three miles from him until August this year where it became 9/10 miles

And was that to move in with a partner?
Is he angry about that?

@Oftenithinkaboutit

And was that to move in with a partner? Is he angry about that?

No it wasn't, it was a house purchase rather than renting. He's with someone else anyway.

@Fireflygal

We recently bought a house in August and my child started at the local school, in year 5

Have you moved further away since the contact order? Did your ex agree to school move or are you in an area of middle school system so all children move at this stage?

Gone from 3 miles away to 9/10 miles away. He didn't oppose the school move. He wouldn't do midweek contact when we lived 3 miles away and definitely won't do it now.

Do you do calls between contact? Might be something worth trying if not, helps to keep that connection (if he'll do it).

Hi all.
Sorry to be back again.
Daughter is now back in my care for the past week. The LA told me they were progressing the school change unless I could provide proof of a prohibited steps order, as I explained before. I applied for an emergency order and let the LA know. Low and behold they came back and said now that I've applied for an emergency order they'll cancel the school transfer. I emailed the court to tell them I don't need the hearing anymore, the LA have backed down. The court had come back and said the judge would still like to hearing to go ahead to talk to both parties. I'm extremely nervous that this is going to anger my ex, or start another set of proceedings where she ends up going to live with him. Since he told her she can move schools she's been refusing to go to her current one, school FLO and SENCO are involved, and we've started private counselling together. He's been messaging her saying he doesn't see why I won't just let her do whatever she wants and that he doesn't see how I can force her to see a counsellor or the family helper at school. It's like fighting a brick wall because she thinks the grass is greener on the other side, and at 9 years old that's naïve. Does anyone have any advice please, specifically about what the court will say and why the judge still wants the hearing? Thank you.

skep, I am just a random female lawyer (don't do divorce law) and my ex husband was violent occasionally (not in a putting me in hospital kind of way but certainly in a breach of criminal law way). I never reported it to anyone (so I will be in no statistics, like most women). I am one of vast numbers of women sadly. The men who never touch their wives like that can find it hard to understand how common it is.

confused, is there a way you can force your daughter into her existing school or bribe her to go or something? She is 9 and seems to think she can decide things and control them. The judge probably still wants a hearing to see how things are going (which is not a bad idea). With my own 9 year old daughters I would have just made them go to school - picked them up, dumped them in the car, forced them there but their father and i never disagreed on schools so it is a different situation.