Upcoming trial for s 172/speeding advice needed

[Idiotdriver123]

Hi all. I posted here a few months ago. Basically, I failed to update the DVLA of my change of address when I moved house. After this, I was caught twice doing 35 in a 30 really close to my home where I drive every day. I only found out about it when I was contacted by bailiffs and I had been convicted of two counts of failing to give driver information under s 172 of the Road Traffic Act. I was also given 12 points and have received notification of an intention to ban me under the totting up rules.

After I got over my shock, I filed a statutory declaration with the court, which has reopened the prosecution. I have been told that I have a trial later this month. I have also been sent the single justice procedure notice where it lists that I have been charged with 2 offences: failing to provide driver info AND speeding.

It has asked me to enter a plea for each charge. Ultimately, I intend to plead guilty to speeding because I was driving the car. BUT I want them to drop the s172 charges in return (technically of course I am guilty but it's because I was stupid, not deliberately evasive and I had no idea about the charges). I have looked at online forums and it has advised to plead not guilty to both offences and then ask the court for the more serious charge to be dropped. According to PePiPoo forums, this is commonplace and they usually do drop the s172.

I just wanted to check if anyone else has experience of this- of pleading not guilty to both and then offering a deal. I am a bit nervous about it and I don't want to turn up at court and be accused of wasting everyone's time by pleading NG. At the same time, I can see that if I enter a guilty plea for speeding now, I could turn up to court and ALSO get convicted of s 172 and would end up with three times the points that I'd get for 2 charges of speeding. So it makes sense from a bargaining perspective.

Would be interested to hear any experiences. Btw, I feel like shit about it already in case anyone wonders. I should have updated it but it slipped my mind totally because I'd updated my licence and stupidly thought this was enough. Speeding is really bad and can cost lives but in some defence, this is a large road and I was going at the lowest speed they prosecute at (10% over limit plus 2 mph). I have driven for 20 years without a point on my licence. I haven't used my car since I found out about this in November.

Even if things go badly for me and I keep 12 points and a ban, I know it's not the end of the world. I live in an area with good public transport and am not a carer. I have checked insurance quotes and my car insurance would still be under £50 a month with two s 172s and a ban. I can afford a larger fine, although it will be annoying. I intend to drive like a pensioner from now on!

Just plead guilty to the speeding if you accept that you were driving, don’t play games with the court.

Plead guilty fgs

Bollocks will you be driving like a pensioner.
No sympathy for you with that pathetic attitude. Just drive under the speed limit, easy peasy.

technically of course I am guilty but it's because I was stupid, not deliberately evasive

Anyone who uses terms like "technically guilty" is going to have a really nasty shock when they encounter the grown ups at court. Especially when they have an attitude of:

BUT I want them to drop the s172 charges in return

"in return" for what, pray tell ? Magic beans ?

I was going at the lowest speed they prosecute at (10% over limit plus 2 mph)

You might want to double check that ... it's guidance not law.

Nothing to add to the advice you have already received. Except to say that in many many years of being in courts, it never goes well for defendants who act like they are doing everyone a favour by being there. The only thing that makes it worse is when you tell the magistrates the law as it applies to you.

BUT I want them to drop the s172 charges in return

In return? For you doing them the favour of pleading guilty to the thing you did?

You aren’t doing them a favour- they owe you nothing in return.

Thanks but I wanted guidance from someone with some experience of this. While you may all have personal views on this, this is a legal advice forum.

I am not sure you understand the nature or my question. I do not dispute that I was doing 35 in a 30. Yes, it is excessive speed and yes I understand that it is only guidance that charging for speeding only begins at 35 mph. In any event, for a speeding offence, it is at the lower end of things, which was the point I was making.

The matter is complicated by the fact that I moved house and didn’t receive my post. That meant that rather than the offer of a speed awareness course and no points or a £100 fine and three points, I ended up charged with a much more serious offence of failing to furnish driver information. This carries 6 points and an £800 fine. Quite a difference.

After having had the case reopened, I have been charged with two offences. I am willing to plead guilty to the speeding in return for the more serious offence being dropped. If it’s not dropped, it is not in my interest to plead guilty to speeding because that’s the offence they can’t prove (because they don’t formally know who the driver is). If I have already pleaded guilty to speeding though, I have nothing to persuade them to drop the failure to furnish offence, meaning that I could end up with nine penalty points per offence (18 in total rather than 6) and lose my licence for a couple of minor speeding offences (FYI, 9 would be around the number of penalty points given to a drunk driver or even someone causing death by dangerous driving). It would be much better for me then to just admit to the failure to furnish charges and end up with 12 points and a totting ban.

Thankfully, I have also been on pepipoo and there people are much more knowledgeable and much less judgmental than here. They advise in no uncertain terms not to plead guilty until you know that the more serious charge has been dropped (as otherwise you leave yourself in a very vulnerable position where you could be convicted of two offences). They have also said that it’s very routine for this deal to be made.

If anyone with any actual experience of this, either as a lawyer or a defendant has some advice, I’d be happy to hear it. It’s been a stressful time. After it is over, I will update here with the outcome in the hope that it might reassure someone else who finds themselves in the same position. Apparently a large number of motoring convictions take place without the defendant being aware because people often forget to update their paperwork.

In return? For you doing them the favour of pleading guilty to the thing you did? confused

You aren’t doing them a favour- they owe you nothing in return.

Well, I am actually. To prove the speeding charge they have to show beyond reasonable doubt that I was driving. This is why I was convicted in my absence of failure to furnish, not speeding. If I admit to speeding, they can prove it. However, if I admit to speeding without having assurance that they will also drop the failure to furnish charge, I am incriminating myself and leaving myself open to two convictions for the same thing (ie conviction for being the driver and for not telling them who the driver was).

I am not sure if any of you have ever received a speeding ticket. Maybe not. Maybe a family member then. They are very common. They are usually dealt with very easily. My case is more complex only because I failed to update my address. I didn’t know about my speeding tickets. That turns it into a huge expensive nightmare that I am trying to sort out. I have had sleepless nights about it and I haven’t driven my car since I found out about it. I hoped for some practical advice.

@ProfessorSlocombe

"in return" for what, pray tell ? Magic beans?

No, in return for a guilty plea to the speeding charge, as I explained.

Except to say that in many many years of being in courts, it never goes well for defendants who act like they are doing everyone a favour by being there

Are you a criminal lawyer? I am interested in where your many years experience come from. I’m not at all acting like I’m doing everyone a favour by being there. If I didn’t give a shit, I could have just paid the original fine and accepted the convictions for failure to furnish. I am trying to put it right but I am sure even you can see how ending up convicted for two separate offences is worse than originally being convicted for one.

Actually, maybe I should thank you because these answers have made me think that maybe I should pay for an hour of legal advice before returning my SJP notice, if I can get an appointment in time.

You can't just 'make a deal' and get one of the charges dropped - that's not how the CPS works! They will try and persuade you to plead guilty to the speeding, at least, because it's better for you - because if you were caught you don't really have a leg to stand on in terms of your defence, and if you take it to trial and lose, you will lose the third off your penalty that you get if you plead guilty straight away, plus your costs will then be about £600 instead of £85. You seem to think that if you don't admit to the s172 they can't charge you with the speeding - this is not the case.

You can try pleading NG to the s172 on the grounds that you moved house and didn't get your mail - you may get away with this, particularly if you have proof of the date of the move, but the bench may not believe you as this is the same excuse that everyone uses and ultimately it's your responsibility to keep your paperwork updated!

If you plead guilty to both at the first opportunity then what may happen is that you get 'no separate penalty' for the lesser offence (speeding), so you would only get one fine, but you would still get both sets of points.

Plead to the speeding and they will almost certainly drop the s172. They don’t need a conviction on both.

Sadly you failed to read the T & C's that come with owning a driving license.. One being your address must be up to date. Not sure you can /should get out of that one..

Get a specialist road traffic lawyer involved. It will cost but be worth it

@Kwality

Plead to the speeding and they will almost certainly drop the s172. They don’t need a conviction on both.

If the s172 is for the same speeding offence then no, they don't need both - but it sounds like OP was originally convicted of two s172s, one of which was subsequently downgraded to a speeding offence - in which case it seems likely they will pursue both.

technically of course I am guilty but it's because I was stupid, not deliberately evasive and I had no idea about the charges

Same thing

I have driven for 20 years without a point on my licence.

Because you haven’t been caught before, not because you’re a great driver 🤣

@Nowisthemonthofmaying

You can't just 'make a deal' and get one of the charges dropped - that's not how the CPS works! They will try and persuade you to plead guilty to the speeding, at least, because it's better for you - because if you were caught you don't really have a leg to stand on in terms of your defence, and if you take it to trial and lose, you will lose the third off your penalty that you get if you plead guilty straight away, plus your costs will then be about £600 instead of £85. You seem to think that if you don't admit to the s172 they can't charge you with the speeding - this is not the case.

You can try pleading NG to the s172 on the grounds that you moved house and didn't get your mail - you may get away with this, particularly if you have proof of the date of the move, but the bench may not believe you as this is the same excuse that everyone uses and ultimately it's your responsibility to keep your paperwork updated!

If you plead guilty to both at the first opportunity then what may happen is that you get 'no separate penalty' for the lesser offence (speeding), so you would only get one fine, but you would still get both sets of points.

Thanks for the reply. I think you have misunderstood me slightly. I don’t think that if I don’t admit to the s 172 they can’t charge me with speeding. Not at all. But unless I admit to the speeding, they can’t convict me for it because they don’t have proof it was me. They can of course convict me for the s 172, which is more serious.

Moving house isn’t an official defence to s 172 although I’d imagine it’s the reason most people get convicted for it. I mean, it’s not in my interests at all to avoid a speeding ticket where I’d have got a minimal fine to end up instead with double the points and eight times the fine.

What I am trying to explain here is:
-I have to complete and send a form to court before the hearing
-The form lists both charges - speeding and s 172. For each I have to indicate guilty or not guilty.
-If I tick guilty for speeding and not guilty for a 172, I could come to court and the Mags could say that I’m convicted of speeding but that I will also be tried for a 172 (to which I don’t have a defence, only an excuse). I would be convicted.

• I’d then be convicted for two separate offences, not one
• That would mean I’d be in a much worse position than if I just accepted the current conviction that took place in my absence.
• If I offered a guilty plea at court (usually it’s done outside the court by the prosecutor and is fairly common actually) in return for the s 172 charge being dropped and it was refused, then I’d cut my losses and plead guilty to the s 172 as I know I’d be convicted at trial anyway.
• I know it’s in my interest to plead guilty to speeding, that’s why I want to do it! I just don’t want to risk being convicted of a second offence too.

I’m not sure I can explain it any more clearly than that. I do appreciate you taking the time to reply though. Are you saying that you think that if I plead guilty to speeding on my SJP form before the hearing that they will automatically drop the s 172 when I get to court? Because the advice on the other forums was the opposite and surely you can see that it’s not in my interest to end up worse off than I currently am? As specified, this is a reopened prosecution.

If the s172 is for the same speeding offence then no, they don't need both - but it sounds like OP was originally convicted of two s172s, one of which was subsequently downgraded to a speeding offence - in which case it seems likely they will pursue both.

No I am being charged with two counts of s 172 and two counts of speeding. Nothing has been downgraded but both charges have been listed.

@Kwality

Plead to the speeding and they will almost certainly drop the s172. They don’t need a conviction on both.

Thank you! Yes, that is what I want to do. I just wanted advice on how to complete the SJP form that lists both charges. Advice on other forums indicates to plead NG on the form and at the first opportunity at court, offer a guilty plea for one in return for dropping the other. The comments on here suggest that I shouldn’t do that, although I think some people were misunderstanding what I said and thought I was trying to get out of both offences. Not at all but obviously trying to protect myself.

Sadly you failed to read the T & C's that come with owning a driving license.. One being your address must be up to date. Not sure you can /should get out of that one

Thanks, but I’m not actually being charged with failing to update my address. That’s a separate matter and the DVLA can fine car owners up to £1000 for failing to do it, although they seem to have taken pity on me (altho if they fined me, I’d pay it). I am being charged with failure to furnish driver information (ie tell the police who was driving). This happened because I’d failed to update my address. If I got convicted of both speeding and failure to furnish, I’d be convicted of: a) being the driver speeding and b) not saying who the driver speeding was. So double (and contradictory) conviction. Maybe people on here would be okay with 18 points, over 2 grand in fines and a ban rather than 6 (or even 12) but I’d rather try to avoid that if at all possible.

Ah OK - so both the speeding and both the s172s are on there? So no, they wouldn't normally charge for all of them. I would probably put NG to all on the form, and then talk to the prosecutor before you go into court to see what's going on and what you can sort out. If you're actually appearing in court to face the charges then it doesn't matter so much what you put on the form - it's really there so that people can plead guilty and get sentenced without having to bother to actually turn up to court.

But thanks again, everyone, for convincing me to get some legal advice before completing the form. I will post this on here afterwards. I feel strongly about wanting to help anyone who has ended up in a similar situation. I am actually legally qualified as a solicitor (although in a totally different area of law) and I’ve still found the process a minefield and extremely stressful. Lots of conflicting information given and difficult procedures. I dread to think how people who have no prior experience of the justice system or have language barriers or MH issues experience it. It’s really not a nice experience.

In any event, if anyone finds themselves convicted in their absence and hears about it from a debt collector, this page from a solicitors firm tells you how to get the case reopened and heard again (inc a link to the statutory declaration form you need):

www.reeds.co.uk/insight/convicted-absence-statutory-declarations/

Also if anyone reading this is in the same position, feel free to DM me. I post under a different name and am a regular so even if you read this two years from now, feel free to get in touch. I will also update with the court outcome.

@Nowisthemonthofmaying

Ah OK - so both the speeding and both the s172s are on there? So no, they wouldn't normally charge for all of them. I would probably put NG to all on the form, and then talk to the prosecutor before you go into court to see what's going on and what you can sort out. If you're actually appearing in court to face the charges then it doesn't matter so much what you put on the form - it's really there so that people can plead guilty and get sentenced without having to bother to actually turn up to court.

Thank you. Yes, that was what I reasoned too. It’s not like I am going to be wasting court time as the hearing will take place anyway. I just don’t want to risk going in there and the prosecutor saying ‘okay so despite the guilty plea to speeding, we still want to pursue the s 172’ (which hopefully they wouldn’t do but I just want to protect my position which I would think is understandable).

Thank you.

@Kwality

Plead to the speeding and they will almost certainly drop the s172. They don’t need a conviction on both.

"almost certainly" ?

I have a bulletproof vest for sale. It's almost certain to protect you from bullets.

The OP is quite right to be concerned about the potential outcome of a series of charges, as described, and would be best advised to take professional legal advise rather than vague platitudes on a public forum. Certainly that would be my advice. It's a bread and butter issue for a lot of practices (which does pique my curiosity as to why the OP is here, not there ) ..

The OP is quite right to be concerned about the potential outcome of a series of charges, as described, and would be best advised to take professional legal advise rather than vague platitudes on a public forum. Certainly that would be my advice. It's a bread and butter issue for a lot of practices (which does pique my curiosity as to why the OP is here, not there )

I wanted to see if anyone had any experience of this but I will pay for an hour of advice next week I think. Not sure it’s worth getting formal representation as the cost is quite prohibitive and I’m not facing jail time or loss of employment or anything like that. Plus, as I do have legal training, representing myself is not quite as daunting as it otherwise could be.

You sound very sceptical about the s 172 being dropped at all. Is this due to personal experience as a lawyer? I’m just quite interested as to why you say that when it seems to go against what I have heard elsewhere and what other posters have now said, once I explained more clearly what I meant.

I work in a magistrates court as a legal adviser to the magistrates and deal with this type of case frequently. The prosecution will not expect to secure a conviction for both speeding and for the s172 offence. They are alternative charges.

Is your case being dealt with under the SJP procedure? If it is, send in your guilty plea to speeding x 2. The s172 x 2 will be withdrawn and you will be sentenced in your absence for both speeding offences.

If you are not happy to do that, then ask for a court hearing, take a day off work and turn up at court. In my area, the police traffic offence prosecutors are appearing via video link and you would not have the opportunity to speak to them before coming into court. You can always contact them by email or telephone before the hearing to discuss your options. They will confirm that they will accept guilty pleas to speeding and drop the s172 charges.

@SecretLegalAdviser. Oh my god, thank you!!! I am so grateful to you. How would I get in touch with the prosecutor? Can I just call the court and get email or phone details? Not having to go to court would be perfect (and I am also conscious of the cost to the public purse of court hearings). Thanks again! You’re a life-saver.