Upcoming trial for s 172/speeding advice needed

[Idiotdriver123]

Hi all. I posted here a few months ago. Basically, I failed to update the DVLA of my change of address when I moved house. After this, I was caught twice doing 35 in a 30 really close to my home where I drive every day. I only found out about it when I was contacted by bailiffs and I had been convicted of two counts of failing to give driver information under s 172 of the Road Traffic Act. I was also given 12 points and have received notification of an intention to ban me under the totting up rules.

After I got over my shock, I filed a statutory declaration with the court, which has reopened the prosecution. I have been told that I have a trial later this month. I have also been sent the single justice procedure notice where it lists that I have been charged with 2 offences: failing to provide driver info AND speeding.

It has asked me to enter a plea for each charge. Ultimately, I intend to plead guilty to speeding because I was driving the car. BUT I want them to drop the s172 charges in return (technically of course I am guilty but it's because I was stupid, not deliberately evasive and I had no idea about the charges). I have looked at online forums and it has advised to plead not guilty to both offences and then ask the court for the more serious charge to be dropped. According to PePiPoo forums, this is commonplace and they usually do drop the s172.

I just wanted to check if anyone else has experience of this- of pleading not guilty to both and then offering a deal. I am a bit nervous about it and I don't want to turn up at court and be accused of wasting everyone's time by pleading NG. At the same time, I can see that if I enter a guilty plea for speeding now, I could turn up to court and ALSO get convicted of s 172 and would end up with three times the points that I'd get for 2 charges of speeding. So it makes sense from a bargaining perspective.

Would be interested to hear any experiences. Btw, I feel like shit about it already in case anyone wonders. I should have updated it but it slipped my mind totally because I'd updated my licence and stupidly thought this was enough. Speeding is really bad and can cost lives but in some defence, this is a large road and I was going at the lowest speed they prosecute at (10% over limit plus 2 mph). I have driven for 20 years without a point on my licence. I haven't used my car since I found out about this in November.

Even if things go badly for me and I keep 12 points and a ban, I know it's not the end of the world. I live in an area with good public transport and am not a carer. I have checked insurance quotes and my car insurance would still be under £50 a month with two s 172s and a ban. I can afford a larger fine, although it will be annoying. I intend to drive like a pensioner from now on!

And I was just going to say, the matter has already been listed for hearing in around 14 days time but obviously if it could be vacated and I could be sentenced in my absence instead, that would be wonderful.

And finally, yes, it’s being dealt with under SJP. Sorry for multiple posts!

Contact details for the police prosecutor should be on your paperwork. If not, email the court to ask - you can find court contact details here: www.gov.uk/find-court-tribunal
I’d email rather than phone, court staff have been cut to the bone and it takes ages to get through

Thank you. I will do this first thing on Monday.

Cross post. I can’t tell if you are still within the SJP system or now listed for a full court hearing. Either way it can be dealt with in your absence provided the court has received your guilty pleas in good time. Don’t forget to include details of your income as this will be needed to fix the amount of your fine (from what you have said, 2 band A fines. These would equate to half your weekly income for each offence, less a third as credit for guilty plea. Plus costs and victim surcharge)

I was going to answer in full but Secretlegaladviser has got there first.

As a magistrate, this is really common. I would not waste your money on a solicitor for this as the legal adviser will explain it to you and dropping the S172s is almost automatic after a guilty plea for the speeding.

Thank you both, that’s so helpful. 🙏
I am completing the income details on the form as we speak. Thanks for that information about the fines. That should be a lot more manageable than the £800 fine I got for each of the s 172. I have also sent an email to the court now, asking if they can let me have contact details for the prosecutor.

I think it’s still within the SJP system as this is what the plea form states (and it gives three options: guilty (sentenced in absence), guilty (come to court) and not guilty).

NRFT but do you have legal expenses cover under your car insurance? Sometimes this will cover prosecution regarding motoring offences, or at the very least legal advice (also check if you have legal protection as an add on to home insurance as this usually offers free legal advice too).

@DemiBourbon

NRFT but do you have legal expenses cover under your car insurance? Sometimes this will cover prosecution regarding motoring offences, or at the very least legal advice (also check if you have legal protection as an add on to home insurance as this usually offers free legal advice too).

Thank you Demi! Yes, I have it for both actually - home and car. That’s very helpful to know.

Idiotdriver I am in a very similar position to you. I plead guilty to speeding but not to not furnishing details and was shocked to be summoned to court (upcoming this July) which they say is automatic for any not guilty plea. I'm sick with worry.

Hi @dragonsbe. I’m so sorry you’re also in this position! It’s horrible isn’t it? Hopefully some of the advice from JustAnotherJP and SecretLegalAdvisor on this thread will be helpful to your case too. I also used the www.pepipoo.com forum and that’s much more matter of fact and supportive than many posters on MN where they love to just tell you what an idiot you are and how you deserve everything coming.

It might be correct that the NG plea hearing is just a formality. Have you been sentenced for the speeding you pleaded guilty to yet? Seems a long wait til July. My hearing is in a couple of weeks so hopefully I can give you a bit more info about what happens after that one.

It’s easier said than done but try not to let it worry you too much. I was out of my mind with stress at first but have realised now that it could be worse. I haven’t killed or injured anyone or driven under the influence, and the actual underlying offence (the speeding) is minor and usually wouldn’t be in court. The pain is mainly financial but I bit the bullet and checked car insurance quotes and even with failure to furnish convictions, it’s not too bad (goes up to £550 from £350 for me but I’d expected it to be over a grand or something). You can get those black boxes too that bring your insurance down if they can see that you’re a good driver.

Thank you IdiotDriver, I don't understand about it just being a formality? The speeding actually happened in October 2019! The letter implied that charges of this nature would be heard in my absence so I was surprised when it changed to being called to court. The hearings have been delayed because of Covid. I will look at that website now. Keep me posted!

No, I agree that it sounds strange. Were you also originally convicted in your absence and asked for the matter to be reopened to hear the speeding charge? My speeding was also in Aug and Oct 19! I found out about it in Nov 2020 from a debt collector who said I owed £1700. I then spoke to the Single Justice Service and to be honest could get neither head nor tail of what I needed to do to begin with. They said they had referred me and that I would be contacted about doing a stat dec but that never happened. During one call, they told me that there was a hearing listed in January but that they would inform me of the outcome afterwards! The court hadn’t told me about it at all and I wouldn’t have known had I not been chasing the SJS about my case. In the end, I got fed up and I downloaded the stat dec form myself (have linked to it above). I completed it, explaining when I moved house etc, got it sworn at a local solicitor and sent it to the court. After that, they finally responded properly and I was sent the plea form plus an email about the video link for the hearing.

As I said in a previous post, I have found the whole process really difficult and I’m a lawyer! There are so many having to represent themselves these days (especially in the family court, where I used to work) and I really feel for them. I didn’t appreciate until now what it’s like.

Dragonsbe, did the court tell you why they adjourned your case until July? It might be worth contacting them to ask.
It could be for trial but this would be extremely unlikely if you pleaded guilty to speeding.
It’s more likely that they have asked you to attend because you already have penalty points on your licence or you were driving too fast.
It could even be that the court didn’t receive your guilty plea.
Email & ask what the purpose of the next hearing is, the court staff will be happy to help you.

I have experience. I couldn't plead guilty for speeding as this wasn't an option in my case. I had two 172s.

I appointed a solicitor for £900 and he got the charges dropped, he also got my £900 refunded by the courts.

@Eileithyiaa

I have experience. I couldn't plead guilty for speeding as this wasn't an option in my case. I had two 172s.

I appointed a solicitor for £900 and he got the charges dropped, he also got my £900 refunded by the courts.

Oh wow, that’s an inspiring story! Is the reason you couldn’t plead to speeding because you weren’t driving the car? I don’t think I’ll be able to get any charges dropped (and, as I did speed, am happy to take responsibility for it) but it’s really good to hear some stories that aren’t doom and gloom. Thank you for sharing yours.

I was driving the car, but I didn't receive the NIP as I hadn't updated the logbook 🤦🏼‍♀️.

My driving licence was up to date but not log book. The first I heard was same as you, letter from court chasing fines as I was prosecuted in my absence and I had 12 points. I did the stat dec which restarted the process however they were no longer prosecuting for the speeding charges but the x2 172s.

I got a date for retrial and appointed a solicitor who specialises in Motor traffic offences. He attended court with me on the day of the trial and whilst building my case he pulled up the fact that I was caught speeding on the same camera twice at the exact same time. He spoke with the prosecution on the day of the hearing and we went before the magistrates where they dismissed the case. I couldn't have done it alone. He had prepared pictures of the camera location etc and worked some legal magic.

I would look into getting a solicitor who specialises in this type of offence purely because if you're found guilty it's 12 points and a ban.

Wow, that sounds amazing. I will try to get some legal advice as someone has mentioned that I could get it on my insurance. I’m not expecting a miracle and I will be absolutely delighted with 6 points and a fine in total but it’s such an inspirational story from you and I’m so glad it worked out for you.

@Idiotdriver123

Wow, that sounds amazing. I will try to get some legal advice as someone has mentioned that I could get it on my insurance. I’m not expecting a miracle and I will be absolutely delighted with 6 points and a fine in total but it’s such an inspirational story from you and I’m so glad it worked out for you.

Your car insurance legal cover won't cover you for this. Legal expenses is for personal injury solicitors in the event of a non fault accident or a ULR to recover your excess etc. The only time your insurers will fork out for legal representation is if you've had a nasty accident and it benefits them to have you properly legally represented this is rare however. In this particular instance thru won't get involved

It was the legal cover on my house insurance that I was thinking of but you’re probably right. Anyway, I am under no illusions that I will be getting out of being convicted of anything or get costs awarded. There aren’t any loopholes or anything that would apply in my case. I’m pretty sure I was doing the speed I am accused of doing. I certainly won’t be instructing a lawyer to represent me at the hearing - it would just be for some one-off advice for reassurance. The costs of representation would outweigh the potential worst case outcome in this case.

I am just very grateful to the advice I have received on here from a couple of the posters and I am feeling better. I will def be posting the outcome so it can help others in the future. Have found a couple of old threads with similar problem but the OPs never came back to update!

@wishywashywoowoo70 @Idiotdriver123 I actually sell motor legal protection which gives cover for up to £50k legal fees iro motoring offences so it does exist. Family legal protection under home insurance will usually include a free legal advice line and the OP can ask about anything she wants.

OP go over to a forum called Fightback Peppio
Post on there you won’t get decent advice on here apart from few people .
They are experts in this sort of stuff on that forum and gave me expect advice that I followed to the letter
In my case I had a speeding ticket & a failure to respond and got them to drop the 172 as I never received the letter and could pretty much prove this although it’s exceptionally hard to prove you didn’t get a letter as it assumed you did get it 😂

I had a SJP notice to appear at court
At the court I looked for the clerk who pointed out the prosecutor
Asked then very nicely if this was possible to do
Take the speeding points and any fine but not the 172 and they agreed
Got a fine and 4 points
This was pre Covid Jan last year
They do this stuff every day and as long as your polite respectful you won’t get a 172
In any case the 172 isn’t the issue it’s the code MS90 that is put on your licence that is the killer
It means the insurers don’t actually know what you did so they price up your insurance horribly
Honest this is pretty much a standard deal that they do every day

If you want legal advice I highly recommend Patterson Motoring lawyers
They have a fixed rate fee £900 plus VAT I think to deal with this
My brother had a similar case 2 years ago and they dealt with it all and he just got 3 points
He Also got his cost back I think about £650

SecretLegalAdvisor - I finally got an email reply from the court and they say that anyone who pleads not guilty (as I did to not receiving the notice) automatically appears in court. Do courts differ around the country? If this gets deffered again is, to be more than two years from the offence, is it possible the matter will be dropped?

Im5050 - how did you prove you didn't get the letter? I really didn't! Should I ask them for proof?

I have a long way to travel for this court appearance, a 4 hour drive, I was a long way from home where it occurred, but I wasn't going to plead guilty to something I am not....

They assume that any letter is sent you have received crazy but that what they do
I’ve always made a report every year to Royal Mail as letter and parcels have gone missing as I have an outside mail box due to my dog
They took that as proof that it was possible for my mail to have gone missing
I had copy’s of the emails going back several years proving complaints

But unless you can prove it’s gone missing they rarely accept it
If you plead not guilty you will have to go to the court
Honest go to fight back peppio forum
They were excellent and will give you lots of advice
Plus there are lots of similar cases to read about