Upcoming trial for s 172/speeding advice needed

[Idiotdriver123]

Hi all. I posted here a few months ago. Basically, I failed to update the DVLA of my change of address when I moved house. After this, I was caught twice doing 35 in a 30 really close to my home where I drive every day. I only found out about it when I was contacted by bailiffs and I had been convicted of two counts of failing to give driver information under s 172 of the Road Traffic Act. I was also given 12 points and have received notification of an intention to ban me under the totting up rules.

After I got over my shock, I filed a statutory declaration with the court, which has reopened the prosecution. I have been told that I have a trial later this month. I have also been sent the single justice procedure notice where it lists that I have been charged with 2 offences: failing to provide driver info AND speeding.

It has asked me to enter a plea for each charge. Ultimately, I intend to plead guilty to speeding because I was driving the car. BUT I want them to drop the s172 charges in return (technically of course I am guilty but it's because I was stupid, not deliberately evasive and I had no idea about the charges). I have looked at online forums and it has advised to plead not guilty to both offences and then ask the court for the more serious charge to be dropped. According to PePiPoo forums, this is commonplace and they usually do drop the s172.

I just wanted to check if anyone else has experience of this- of pleading not guilty to both and then offering a deal. I am a bit nervous about it and I don't want to turn up at court and be accused of wasting everyone's time by pleading NG. At the same time, I can see that if I enter a guilty plea for speeding now, I could turn up to court and ALSO get convicted of s 172 and would end up with three times the points that I'd get for 2 charges of speeding. So it makes sense from a bargaining perspective.

Would be interested to hear any experiences. Btw, I feel like shit about it already in case anyone wonders. I should have updated it but it slipped my mind totally because I'd updated my licence and stupidly thought this was enough. Speeding is really bad and can cost lives but in some defence, this is a large road and I was going at the lowest speed they prosecute at (10% over limit plus 2 mph). I have driven for 20 years without a point on my licence. I haven't used my car since I found out about this in November.

Even if things go badly for me and I keep 12 points and a ban, I know it's not the end of the world. I live in an area with good public transport and am not a carer. I have checked insurance quotes and my car insurance would still be under £50 a month with two s 172s and a ban. I can afford a larger fine, although it will be annoying. I intend to drive like a pensioner from now on!

forums.pepipoo.com/

I think now you aren’t being charged with speeding
Your bring charge with failure to respond which is the 172
I think that After 6 months they can’t charge you with speeding
So that is why they go for failure to respond

im5050, thank you. I was charged with both, way back in Nov 19. Pled not guilty to failure to provide. A court case was to be held but was adjourned and then postponed. I do have points on my license so perhaps that is why they have called me in...but I don't know how to clarify, and court said it was because I pled NG. I will look on the other forum, thanks all for your support.

I am not sure if any of you have ever received a speeding ticket. Maybe not. Maybe a family member then. They are very common. They are usually dealt with very easily.
You should definitely begin your defence with that. The judge will be most grateful.

@RunningFromInsanity

I am not sure if any of you have ever received a speeding ticket. Maybe not. Maybe a family member then. They are very common. They are usually dealt with very easily. You should definitely begin your defence with that. The judge will be most grateful.

Very funny...

Plead guilty on both, but explain the circumstances regarding the house information update.

Unfortunately ignorance of the law is not a defence.

Surely if you plead not guilty to the speeding the onus is on you to identify who was driving your car rather than them proving it was you? Otherwise everyone caught by a speed camera would just say “it wasn’t me Guv and you cant prove it was”?

They assume that any letter is sent you have received crazy but that what they do

That cuts both ways. If the OP had returned the NIP and obtained a receipt of posting, it would be proof of their responding.

@Soontobe60

Surely if you plead not guilty to the speeding the onus is on you to identify who was driving your car rather than them proving it was you? Otherwise everyone caught by a speed camera would just say “it wasn’t me Guv and you cant prove it was”?

No, it’s for the prosecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant is guilty, not the other way round. Fundamental tenet of criminal law.

I will be back after this has been resolved with an update. Thanks to all who have been helpful.

Imagine I were a juror and the prosecutor showed evidence that a car was being driven over the speed limit, then asked the question of the car owner - were you driving the car at the time this photo was taken. If the owner answered ‘no’ I guess the prosecutors next question would be ‘do you know who was driving the car’. the owner then has 2 options - yes, or no. If answers ‘yes’ next question would be ‘who was it’. If no, the next question would be ‘did you report your car as stolen’.
Can you see where this is going? As a juror, I’d believe the prosecutor had proven beyond reasonable doubt that the owner was indeed the driver unless they named the actual driver or produced evidence of reporting the car as being stolen. After all, a car cant drive itself!

@Soontobe60

Imagine I were a juror and the prosecutor showed evidence that a car was being driven over the speed limit, then asked the question of the car owner - were you driving the car at the time this photo was taken. If the owner answered ‘no’ I guess the prosecutors next question would be ‘do you know who was driving the car’. the owner then has 2 options - yes, or no. If answers ‘yes’ next question would be ‘who was it’. If no, the next question would be ‘did you report your car as stolen’. Can you see where this is going? As a juror, I’d believe the prosecutor had proven beyond reasonable doubt that the owner was indeed the driver unless they named the actual driver or produced evidence of reporting the car as being stolen. After all, a car cant drive itself!

There is no jury in the magistrates court and you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about with regards this specific legal issue or questions of proof in driving cases. Fair enough if you want to just entertain yourself on here by posting silly stuff but maybe AIBU will be better for you.

As I said, I will update when this is sorted. And if you bothered reading my posts, I actually intend to plead guilty to speeding.

I agree that getting a specialist road traffic solicitor would be worth the investment.
You're getting a hard time here. I moved house and didn't realise the address needed to be updated promptly by law. 35 in a 30 zone isn't exactly reckless either.
Definitely give a specialist a ring. Maybe you can hire for a capped fee or 1 hour advice.

As a juror, I’d believe the prosecutor had proven beyond reasonable doubt that the owner was indeed the driver unless they named the actual driver or produced evidence of reporting the car as being stolen. After all, a car cant drive itself!

Yes, someone must have been driving the car, but it is not unreasonable for the owner to be certain it wasn't them but unable to remember who it was, particularly if other family members regularly drive the car. So no, that falls a long way short of proving beyond reasonable doubt.

You can be fined £1000 and 6 points for
not saying who was driving.

@3rdNamechange

You can be fined £1000 and 6 points for not saying who was driving.

My god, this is getting a bit tiring now. It would be good if people read the thread and/or didn’t comment on things they don’t know anything about.

Yes, I know you can be fined and get points for not naming the driver. That is the exact thing that has happened to me and which i am trying to sort out now by reopening the prosecution. I was just trying to ensure that I didn’t get a double conviction arising from the same offence. Which is pretty understandable. I have now received good advice from posters and from another forum that have reassured me that a double conviction is very unlikely as it will be either or.

Did you get on Peppio Forum
They are brutal but very helpful 😂
In my case speeding - wasn’t me and failing to respond because I didn’t get the letter
I didn’t get charged because the person driving had bank statements putting him at the exact location near the time it happened buying petrol
After 6 months go past they can’t prosecute the original driver as it’s timed out
So they go hard on the FTR /172
But in my case I could prove that I get problems with my post regularly and that there is street with a very similar name just 30 second walk away
But the police don’t sends these letters recorded or tracked it’s just assumed that it’s arrived on time
It’s down to you to prove otherwise which is very hard to do

It’s actually a really nasty piece of law
Because the letters aren’t sent tracked or signed for .
So the courts assume it was sent and you got the letter .
It’s then down to you to prove otherwise which is really hard to do because how can you prove you didn’t get a letter.

If you can’t prove you didn’t get it then you can end up with the 172 failure to respond
It’s actually the insurance code MS90 that’s the killer as that goes on your licence and insurers have no idea what you did
You could have not replied to a letter or been drunk driving they have no idea so they charge your insurance accordingly
It’s why a lot of people get confused with this type of case as it down to you to prove you didn’t get the letter NIP

It’s Not down to the prosecution to prove that you did get it
As It’s always assumed that the letter was sent and you received it and didn’t reply
In court most of the time they will drop the 172 if you admit to the speeding
Also most people think that updating licence is enough
It’s not you need to update the log book to the bee address
It’s very common albeit a bit scary when you realise it’s very hard to defend not receiving a letter

Thanks Im5050 I have been on pepipoo and the advice there was to plead not guilty to both and then ask to do a deal at court. Interestingly, I found them far more courteous and less judgemental than on here (with the exception of a few posters).

I have been charged jointly with a 172 and speeding so I presume that this is okay despite it being more than 6 months since the offence if it’s a reopened prosecution. I don’t have a leg to stand on with the letters because I am sure they arrived. It was just that I had moved house and didn’t know about them. I know that this isn’t a legal defence to the charge though so I am hoping the prosecution will drop these charges in return for a conviction on the speeding charges.

I have been sent the details of the prosecutor by the court so I am sending them an email today. I have checked insurance quotes and although the s 172 makes the insurance increase, it’s not as bad as I thought and I can still afford it. That’s why I have decided not to pay for a solicitor. I know some on here have said you got your costs back but I can only see that happening if it’s found that the case was prosecuted in error and I genuinely don’t believe this is the case here. I’d be pleading guilty so there is no way I will get costs. So it’s not worth it for me to instruct someone.

I’m glad you got some good help they are very good and knowledgeable on that forums
They also give advice on parking tickets and fines
In case you get any in the future

It’s a weird law because you have to plead not guilty in order to get a lesser punishment 😂
you would assume by pleading guilty you would get a lesser punishment but that’s not how driving cases work .

Because it’s more than 6 months They can’t charge the driver ( you ) so they go hard on the 172 as it’s a much more serious crime
But then at court they will do a deal for the speeding and drop the 172. They just want a body 😂😂 to punish

Unless you turn up naked and tell the magistrate to fuck off this type of deal is done daily -ok you might be doing it by zoom😂
In the future I would recommend doing an email every year to Royal Mail complaining about your post
Keep the emails
This is one of the few defences they will accept as proof of problems with mail

If it’s reopened prosecution case they will say it’s your job to redirect your mail when you moved and update logbook
If you did redirect the mail and still have proof that’s evidence as well that you did the right thing and they will accept that as proof

The good thing is that the points go from when you were caught speeding so 2019
Not from the date you go to court so your already a good way through the points on your licence

Unless you turn up naked and tell the magistrate to fuck off this type of deal is done daily

Haha, sadly security tend to chuck out the naked ones before they get to us

Well, it’s a bit cold for the naked thing but I saw that lawyer who had a kitten filter on for his zoom-trial and I was thinking of something like that. Surely they couldn’t say no to a fluffy kitten?

(I’m joking by the way)

I'm scared to ask this now - but what is the log book and how do you update it?

Ignore me, I've googled it.

I had almost this exact scenario but had sent the NIP back but didn’t get proof of postage and the police said they hadn’t received it so although I had tried to admit to driving I couldn’t prove it. Next thing I received was a bailiff letter.

I posted over at Pepipoo at the time - you may have read my post over there.

I had to go to court and do a deal on the day - no one batted and eyelid I received
3 x points for each SP30 offence and a fine which I was allowed to pay off in instalments.

The court date was hanging over me for months and it was so stressful, I couldn’t afford legal help and had just qualified for a job where I needed a car.