Losing daughter to abusive ex... don't know what to do

[Kusachi]

I made a thread before about ex taking our daughter away and not returning her home until I applied to court... 6 months later the court continues and it's looking really grim.
Ex has been ea and continues to punish me for leaving him. Unfortunately dd has to suffer too now we hardly ever see each other. I really want this to end and return to sanity and peaceful co-parenting, but the only options seem to accept his extremely unfair terms or keep fighting and being devastated and losing faith in humanity every time.
Each report ex somehow manages to paint me in a horrible light and they believe his words. I don't know what to do. Everyone tells me to get legal advice, but since I'm poor and don't live in UK so don't qualify for legal aid or any local schemes. I'm at wits end, somebody please help me with ideas!

I have massive sympathy but honestly there's no point in getting a Dutch lawyer and it's irrelevant what the laws surrounding his PR are in the Netherlands when the child is habitually resident in the uk. She is under the jurisdiction of the court of the country she lives in and a Dutch lawyer will neither be familiar with English (assuming England) family law, nor would they be able to represent you in court. Obviously I don't know the full details but it sounds unlikely she'd be removed from the UK and her father to live permanently elsewhere now at this stage. I'm not sure court will see things like you think about securing a home. Sadly they are easily swayed by these controlling abusive men with sob stories. Due to circumstances I massively researched The Hague convention and cases of this nature and have discussed things at length with experienced international family lawyers. Personally I'd have to close the gap between myself and my dd but that's up to you. whatever you decide

I'm in Australia but my French friend has had similar with her partner over here...both French...he took her DD against her will and poisoned her mind against her Mum. He left my friend with only her son...who is Autistic...my friend said he always rejected their son because of his Autism but wanted the "perfect" child.

He's a nutcase. My friend couldn't afford legal help but then she told her GP he'd been violent and bingo...she got free help for her legal advice because of the violence.

Swing I thought that...that OP could have got housed in the UK...even in temp accommodation.

Happycamper - thank you for pointing that out to me about the Dutch lawyers. I was hoping that having some legal advise was better than none at all, but perhaps it is pointless and a waste of time if it lacks precision.
The reason I applied to court in the first place was to return my daughter home as I didn't know where he took her or when I would get to ser her again. The question of relocation was secondary, but it got lumped together and only played in my exes hands. At the time I had no idea that there would be such opposition from his side, considering our daily reality was him leaving early to his work and coming home late after dd was asleep for most of her life and I had to plead with him to spend time with us in the weekend.
Also I had no idea that he's been preparing for this, long before we broke up.
You're right, they all get swayed. It's almost like everyone is scared of not being politically correct enough with their "men can be abused too" and ignore the facts in the story.
Now I know its difficult to relocate the children, but am I wrong to think that still a significant proportion of cases do get permission? I mean Payne does sound similar to our situation?
My dd matters to me the most and if for some crazy reason they won't let her go, I would do everything to be closer to her. It could take me a long time to be able to settle back in UK.

This charity may be able to help you OP reunite.org

MissSue - wow, you're very thorough. The timeline is roughly correct obviously missing all the nuance of constant fight to be able to live independently from ex but trying to remain in the UK. Also the housing in NL came through just at the time of us getting evicted.

I would still seek legal advice in the NL. I suspect happycamper will be right, and it'll be considered a UK case as your daughter is resident there, but it's worth checking.

If that is the case and they can't help, is it an option for you to move back to the UK?

Your situation is really complex, but you're going to find it tough to overcome that your child is now habitually resident with her father in the UK, and to fight that, you may need to be here too.

I think the situation is very difficult but one thing stands out from what others have said here OP

It will be much easier to fight this in the UK.

I would, in your position, pour all my energy into getting to the UK. I know you have a house in Netherlands...I know it was hard to get....I know you don't have much money.

BUT there's always a way. Could you leave your partner in the Netherlands house and try to get a flat in England? Stay with friends? Anything?

Swing, I put my name on the list for the Dutch house when I became disillusioned with our relationship and life in the UK. I knew I had to wait a long time but it helped to hope. Since then I broke up with him and started feeling better, after so many years UK started to feel like home. So my plan was to definitely stay. I needed to find income to afford to live independently from ex but found out about dd2 at the worst possible time so wouldn't be able to work and due to being sahm for so long no worker status so no benefits. Then I found out that ex hasn't been paying rent for a very long time (while I was paying for the bills and doing all the housework/childcare) when eviction letter came. I wanted to spare my children living in temporary accomodation and I didn't know whether I could get a council house so quickly and how we would be able to survive with no money in UK.

Genuine, thank you, I will have a look!
Anchor, Henny - it's starting to dawn on me that there is a real possibility they will not let her come. The court is dragging and ex having sole care longer. Poor dd without us all this time.
I'm thinking, even if I was to move back tomorrow, we would only be able to see each other 3 times a week for 2 hours. There's also more opportunity for ex to keep getting me in trouble. My mental health would definitely suffer.
Also after what we've been through I'm reluctant to give up on security again. I need to have solid income and savings before I wager going back.
I will have to travel fairly regularly in the next several months to see dd until the fact finding hearing. My hope is then that the new order will be fairer.

I can't believe they think your DD is better off in a hostel! With a violent man!

The longer the time passes, the less chances you have OP.

It'll be a year and then two ...court dates will roll around...your ex will keep delivering lies and shocking statements...and by then the courts will say "Oh she's settled with him now...he's got a council house and she likes her school" this is what happened to my friend.

And her ex poisoned her child's mind too...so now when she sees her child for contact (which she had to fight for..she had none at all for over a year) her DD is belligerent and out and out aggressive towards her...she sits in McDonald's with her for 2 hours and her DD ignores her.

She's coping...just. She's devastated of course...her DD is 10 now and all this started when she was just 7.

What you have to remember is that the court won't do anything for you or for your ex (even if it feels like it) but will only look at the interest of your dd. Their priority is to minimise change to their lives, which is why they most always favour the child staying in the country, because it means staying to what is familiar to them.

In your situation, whichever way the court was to rule, your daughter was going to experience change and loss. If she'd moved to the Netherlands with you, she would have experienced missing her dad as well as having to adjust to a new life. That's how the judge would have seen it.

Sadly, the more time passes, the more she settles in her new life, the harder it will be for you to evidence to a judge that another change would be better for her than her settled status, at home, in school, with extended family on her father's side, with her friends etc...

Unless you can evidence that your ex is abusive and therefore living with him is hurtful to her, you need to accept that you are going to struggle gaining custody, let alone being able to take her with you to the Netherlands.

You are better off putting your efforts in setting regular visits, coming to the UK eow, and making these long week-ends a top quality time together. Same with holidays. Hopefully you'll then be able to have her for a week on holiday in the UK and gradually might be able to agree with your ex or ask a judge for her to come to the Netherlands.

Who knows, when she is older, she might decide herself she would rather live with you, but as it is now, you deciding to move to the Netherlands assuming that you could take your dd has not gone in your favour and her father was probably able to show the court that you had been planning to do so.

Henny - how awful for your friend :( her only hope is that her dd will see the truth when she's older but how awful not to be allowed to raise your own child. I don't want it to happen to us, I know my ex was trying to coach dd to make her believe and say things about me that suggest she is scared of me. But every time we see each other she runs into my arms and can't stop cuddling her little sister, it's like her dream come true, I wish the judge could see that!

Swing - so how do you evidence covert emotional abuse that happened to me and is happening to my dd now? He is so persuasive and manages to twist the most outrageous things he does to look positive on him.
The section 7 writer was eating out of his hands, so I can't even begin to address the content. Can I ever prove that he's been lying? I'm going to do my best effort at the upcoming fact finding hearing and submit dream bundle. But I have so little faith left, they seem to not read most of what is submitted. Does anyone know if they will be thorough this time and finally give me the chance to speak, considering the hearing will last two days?

My experience of family court is that they were anything but thorough. Everything was just breezed over, my concerns dismissed. The report stated he had no convictions in the uk 'apart from the DV crime against me' this is actually what was stated. This saw him served with a non harassment order but that was just me so it didn't appear to matter. It seemed acceptable. His other crimes were all in another country (where country dc were born) no one bothered following any of that up. It was EU so records would have been easily available. I don't have much faith either OP. Where you said they are trying hard to be PC I find you are right, it's meant to be about the kids best interests but they have no interest in what the child actually wants it seems.

I'm going to assume when you were awarded 3 days a week (have I remembered that detail correctly) you were in the uk? It won't look great sadly that you left the country and didn't keep up that contact. I'd imagine you'll be awarded some sort of slightly longer but less regular contact under the current situation with exp as resident but is that really enough for you? You've already said he's got them eating out of his hand and he'll now be playing the 'you chose to go and abandon' card.

Sorry to paint this picture but through my own experience and that of many others it's likely the reality

I've tried to make sense in the time frame of it all, but I just can't get my head around it. You say that your daughter was in the Netherlands when born and her father wasn't on the birth certificate. Was her dad living in the Netherlands too with you? I am guessing not.

You then move to the UK to be with him, but not long afterwards, put your name down for a property in the Netherlands (you say many years ago and your dd is only 6). Then you say that 1 year ago, you were still in the family property and trying to sort out your relationship, and that's when you agree to him being on the BC, but you have another daughter, from another man, so unless you left him 10 months ago, got pregnant right away with another man, and your youngest is only 1 month old, are you saying you were living with your ex whilst pregnant with another man's child?

But then in your opening post, you say that he took her away and only brought her back when you took him to court and that was 6 months ago. So were you already living separately when he took her away?

And when you went to court, he was granted custody, but you were granted 3 visits a week. If you had then already moved to the Netherlands, why would they have given you contact 3 times a week knowing you were living abroad? Did you say you would move back to the uk?

Also, if you moved shortly to the uk after she was born, you would have been in the uk for 5 years, you therefore could have asked for settled status that would have entitled you to all the benefits in this country.

Sorry OP, but there are quite some holes in what you are saying that doesn't make sense. Whatever the situation, I hope you can continue to come to the UK to have regular contact with your dd. Has your youngest dd no contact at all with her father?

her only hope is that her dd will see the truth when she's older

That's what we tell her. But OP...she didn't believe it would go on as long as it did...that's why you need to get all the help you can. Go to Mumsnet Legal and post there...keep bumping the post...there will be good advice there regarding the best course of action.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/legal_matters

There it is. You can put a new post there. Put all the information clearly..

@HennyPennyHorror threats to kill me but no physical violence. He is ex army. The policeman who attended refused to log it because service personnel don't beat or kill their wives/stb ex wives. Ironic given statistics say otherwise.

Happycamper11 - I'm sorry it's your experience as well. They really don't bother listening to a six year old who in no uncertain terms keeps repeating that she wants to be with both her parents and her little sister and that she loves them equally, because they make her happy.
I was ordered 3 days a week after the judge told him off for keeping her away from home and not letting us speak, they would do a quick investigation with safeguarding and revisit. I was indeed still living in the UK then.
I don't think I would be satisfied being phased out from her life like that. Only "seeing" my daughter and doing fun things after I've been doing all the raising, caring, disciplining, choosing schools single handedly, breaking my head wanting her to have the best of everything. They can't just fire me as her mother for no reason. And decide that growing up together with her sister who she absolutely adores is less important than being there with her dad

They don't understand that the way my dd is, a confident, intelligent and healthy little girl, is due to how I raised her all these years. Ex lies that I have always put my needs first, the reporters just copy paste that sentence, which is a real slap in the face, considering I had completely put my life on hold since having dd. It's like I was needed to birth her and now she's past her nappies and sleepless nights stage and incredibly interesting and self-sufficient, ex wants her and just wants to get rid of me.

I was ordered 3 days a week after the judge told him off for keeping her away from home and not letting us speak, they would do a quick investigation with safeguarding and revisit. I was indeed still living in the UK then.

So what went wrong...? Was it just when you went abroad that he stole her? At that time, you were meant to have 3 days a week? Meaning he had 4? Doesn't that make him the main carer? The one in receipt of benefits etc?

I'm sure all that is true and you've done everything for your DD but you must realise how it must look to court that during all of this being unresolved, you moved away to another country where you could see your dd even less than was ordered. They won't be interested in the circumstances behind it, they will just see the action. There is now no option for the 50/50 custody that your daughter seems to want.

Swingofthings - I understand that you're confused, my situation is incredibly complex (thanks for taking the time, btw!).

We were together in the UK with ex, but when I found out I was pregnant, I chose to move back to NL, because abusive relationship stress was not what I needed when pregnant. Also I wanted my family (especially mum) close by when becoming a mother myself. He then joined me a few months before dd was born in NL and we went back to UK together when she was 7 months.
We broke up a few years later, that's when I put my name down for the house in NL, but l was trying to move out anywhere for the next 3 years. In those 3 years I was definitely not trying to sort out my relationship with him, but just co-parenting and living as house mates. He didn't care much about being on BC or not it seemed and I did it of my own accord to allow for dd to get British passport so we would be treated as residents (they pretty much asked me to move back to NL when I applied for IS). No you're not entitled to benefits if you live in UK for 5 years, only if you work continuously for 5 years.
We were still living together when he took her away.
The youngest's dad is back in contact with her.

Henny, we were at home, he took her to his workplace for a few hours and never returned with dd. 3 times a week, not days was just meant to reestablish contact. What went wrong is that between then and the next hearing ex put the work in to make many social service and police calls which, when a quick safeguarding check was made, made it look like dd was in extreme danger. Following that they advised supervised contact only until S7, police, gp checks whatnot are being done. The S7 was written without any of those checks being done in the end and the judge hasn't got this information.

Happycamper - I'm sure it seems like I just upped and left to the court that can't be bothered. But I won't leave them alone, life has taught me that you need to be persistent to the point of insanity. Just look at what my ex was able to achieve.