help!!! boundary dispute! I want a fence!

[mummytohpm]

Hi!

I'm sort of new here. Commented on a few things but now I need some help!

Basically I want to build a fence to enclose my back yard. I am apparently not allowed to do this according to a lovely landlord who owns some houses on our street.

My house is a mid terrace - please see attached drawing to illustrate! I don't know how to explain it otherwise!

I own all the yard. Up to their back doors. It is shown clearly on my deeds. It is not shown on theirs - they only own the actual properties and it stops at their door steps. (I have seen 2 and 6 deeds) however it is referred to in the deeds as a 'common yard'

Right so I want to build a fence as shown but the landlord who owns house 2 and 6 reckons I can't.

Basically, 2, 4, 6, 81 and 85 have hanging rights and access rights over the yard.

In my deeds it stipulates that all the houses must be able to gain access to their properties and that the washing line must hang from 2,4, 6 or 81 over to 85s garage!

However - 85 doesn't have a garage anymore. They knocked it down last year. Also there is now a 7ft fence between us and 85 (for the record we have no issue with this personally)

So - for access building this fence wouldn't be a problem as we're not enclosing or blocking off anyone's door, and obviously 85 have their own access on the other side of their fence.

The problem is the hanging rights. The LL is saying that by building a fence we are obstructing these rights.

For one thing nobody hangs their washing out, and their are no lines. For two, the garage they should be attached to does not exist.

I have said to this LL that I will put a gate on the fence and either lock it and give them all a key should they want to hang their washing from my fence to 85s fence, or I will leave it open.

My solicitor has advised that this is reasonable and that the gate has to be wide enough for a wheelchair.

LL doesn't think this is good enough and has advised he will take me to court if I erect a fence. And charge me for the pleasure of doing so.

As a side note - this LL never had a problem with mr 85 building his fence or knocking his garage down. LL definitely knew about this when it happened as he lives about 5 doors up from mr 85 and wanders the streets all the time!

So can I legally build this fence?

I don't entirely trust my solicitor so before possibly being taken to court I thought I'd consult MN!

Thanks!!

same "firm" as your conveyancing solicitor (sorry my autocorrect is working overtime)

I'm sure you can do all the maintenance you want if you don't so others to pay. I think once you start making improvements and asking others to pay for it you will become unstuck and will run into problems. As I said before I think the LL is full of hot air and so is his solicitor, he isn't going to take you to court because it will cost him not you, words are cheap.

LL solicitor told me I cannot do any maintenance without it being agreed by everyone

LL solicitor told me I cannot do any maintenance without it being agreed by everyone

He's not in your side - don't listen to him - he may not even be a solicitor -

Why are you taking the opposition word as gospel?

Agree with the others, how do you know this 'solicitor' even wrote the letter? The LL may have headed notepaper and is sending this stuff by himself. Ignore those letters and do what you want to your land.

If someone came into my garden and said I'm a solicitor for next door you can't do x, y, z. Two words would come to mind and he would be shown the door.

Op. See a specialist property litigator for advice but in my view your deeds are clear

The relevant neighbours have a right of way over the yard - only in so far as is necessary to access their properties and they have a right to hang their washing in the yard from the line from 85's garage

They are required to pay you the specified proportion of repairing and maintaining the yard.

Have you ever demanded payment? My view is that in all likelihood if they fail to pay they could well lose the rights over the yard

In any event there is nothing specified about how you carry out repairs and maintainable so you'd have a duty to act reasonably

Nothing to stop you putting up a fence as long as they still have access ( presume they currently use on foot only not car??) obviously a fence would prevent access by car

Get lawyer to advise whether you can charge the neighbours for the relevant proportion of cost of the fence and refuse to hand over a key until they've paid

Good luck!

I'm a law student and there are some practical things you can do to put the pressure up on the landlord. Get a digital camera and take a picture of the backyard everyday and several different intervals to show that the neighbors are not using the Backspace (but don't tell anyone about this, if it does come to court you have evidence to show that LL is lying to the court) this is not a straightforward he said she said situation if you have evidence and can screw the LL.

Secondly ask for payment for maintenance legally and if they don't cough up, you can threaten them to take them to court to either cough up or lose right of way. Play it smart is my advice. Once I study more into Land law- will comment back here again. MY advice is go to a different legal firm and never believe what opposing council says(landlords solicitors , plus as you have pointed out..this man has form for harassment so he may be sending you the stuff himself). You need to be smarter than he is.

Also I wouldn't trust your current solicitors as they can and most solicitors do lie to clients to cover up their mistakes.

I know he's a real solicitor I've emailed him several times and they're a well known firm. Although their reputation is not brilliant.

I will seek a new solicitor who is impartial and see what they say!

I haven't ever asked for any kind of payment no, but if I do any maintenance that is not solely for my benefit I will be asking.

I will start taking pictures also. Especially on warm days when it is washing hanging out weather!

Can you be clear - is the fence going from the small extension on the right of the photo to where you are standing? So would 2/4/6 have a strip to walk down the other side of the fence - and out of the yard?

So they can access the rear of their property and leave the yard?

Then they may only need to enter your yard if they want to hang washing?

There's nothing to stop you asking a solicitor to write to the neighbours telling them a fence is going up and they can access the hanging rights if they wish via a gate in the fence.

So technically - there rights haven't been changed -

You could add - as this is not a maintenance issue - no charge will be made to yourselves.

Exactly right Cody their access would be down the side of the fence

Apologies if I've not properly understood but wasn't the washing line supposed to have been attached to the (now demolished) garage?? Where does the LL or anyone else plan to attach the line now?? Sounds like the LL is a bully & previous owner refused his offer out if spite. doesn't mean you should suffer for it though.

Yes garage has gone - presumably they would attach to 85s fence..

They haven't said!

Rubbish - ascertaining your rights to your own land is not a dispute.

Going against those rights and the rights of the neighbours is a dispute

You're entitled to ask for their share of repairs and maintenance - regardless of who will benefit.

Improvements would no doubt not be covered by "repairs and maintenance" but check with your lawyer

I agree with thinkfast, improvement are not maintenance. Maintenance is making something good or carrying out work to stop something getting worse. I don't think that's what your doing, you are make improvements by putting up fences and trying to increase the value. You will come unstuck if you ask for neighbours to pay for that. If nothing is broken or needing repaired then there is likely no maintenance needed.

If you live in a relatively small town you will probably find all the solicitors know each other and talk to each other off the record, it may be worth going further afield to find someone who will be impartial.

It's also a bit weird a solicitor is speaking to you without charging when your email him back and forward, I tend to find they don't engage.

I'd get some of these m.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/products/spr/29898342/ and maybe one of these m.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/products/art/60285335/

I also agree a fence along the back would be best for everyone. If you don't want to pay for the whole thing you could just do your section of the back.

RICS offer a helpline on boundary issues see here www.rics.org/uk/footer/contact-us/rics-consumer-helplines/.
30 mins of free advice - it might be worth giving them a call.

Owning the land does not mean OP can do what she likes.

Hence she needs advice on what she can do - finding out what the terms of the deeds mean by seeking advice does not make it a dispute

Thanks everyone

Will definitely ring Rics and see a new solicitor

The fact that solicitors work in the same town is neither here nor there. It's bad advice that you have to go further afield because they might know one another. We do tend to know one another but that doesn't mean we breach our duties towards our clients.

As long as you have a solicitor who is a specialist and who doesn't work for the same firm as the solicitor who did your conveyancing then you should be fine. If you want to PM me with your town then I might be able to make a recommendation.

The solicitor for the owner of the adjoining properties (it's a bit misleading to call him a LL since he owns those buildings and is therefore an owner in the same way as any other owner) is unlikely to be correct when he says you can't maintain without their consent. That would be very unusual.

PP is correct when they point out that access may well mean access by car. In our case the neighbours have the right to pass and repass on foot or in vehicles. The right is also for their assignees which means that they can send delivery lorries down etc.

The bit about the ashes place is odd. Ive just read it again and it seems to give the right to the purchaser (of your property) and the vendor - seller (of your property). As I said before though, any solicitor acting for you will need to see the whole of the document to advise you.