help!!! boundary dispute! I want a fence!

[mummytohpm]

Hi!

I'm sort of new here. Commented on a few things but now I need some help!

Basically I want to build a fence to enclose my back yard. I am apparently not allowed to do this according to a lovely landlord who owns some houses on our street.

My house is a mid terrace - please see attached drawing to illustrate! I don't know how to explain it otherwise!

I own all the yard. Up to their back doors. It is shown clearly on my deeds. It is not shown on theirs - they only own the actual properties and it stops at their door steps. (I have seen 2 and 6 deeds) however it is referred to in the deeds as a 'common yard'

Right so I want to build a fence as shown but the landlord who owns house 2 and 6 reckons I can't.

Basically, 2, 4, 6, 81 and 85 have hanging rights and access rights over the yard.

In my deeds it stipulates that all the houses must be able to gain access to their properties and that the washing line must hang from 2,4, 6 or 81 over to 85s garage!

However - 85 doesn't have a garage anymore. They knocked it down last year. Also there is now a 7ft fence between us and 85 (for the record we have no issue with this personally)

So - for access building this fence wouldn't be a problem as we're not enclosing or blocking off anyone's door, and obviously 85 have their own access on the other side of their fence.

The problem is the hanging rights. The LL is saying that by building a fence we are obstructing these rights.

For one thing nobody hangs their washing out, and their are no lines. For two, the garage they should be attached to does not exist.

I have said to this LL that I will put a gate on the fence and either lock it and give them all a key should they want to hang their washing from my fence to 85s fence, or I will leave it open.

My solicitor has advised that this is reasonable and that the gate has to be wide enough for a wheelchair.

LL doesn't think this is good enough and has advised he will take me to court if I erect a fence. And charge me for the pleasure of doing so.

As a side note - this LL never had a problem with mr 85 building his fence or knocking his garage down. LL definitely knew about this when it happened as he lives about 5 doors up from mr 85 and wanders the streets all the time!

So can I legally build this fence?

I don't entirely trust my solicitor so before possibly being taken to court I thought I'd consult MN!

Thanks!!

Random - according to his solicitor I can't do ANYTHING without his permission and presumably the permission of the LL of 4 and 81 and maybe even 85!

Also they would all be liable to contribute if we want to go by exactly what the deeds say.

I don't want to ask them for money though! Especially not 85!

Cody - everyone else's garden on the street is fenced. There is no other corners that are similar to our set up :(

Just re read deeds

As I understand it any maintenance to the yard (presumably includes fences?

We should pay 2/7

81 pays 1/7
85 pays 1/7
2 pays 1/7
4 pays 1/7
6 pays 1/7

So LL would have to pay 2/7 of any maintenance costs.

But his solicitor doesn't think I have the right to decide what needs maintaining!

So how do I get his permission or get him to cough up?

If I'm putting a fence at the end and leaving the yard as a common yard and having it for everyone's use (which I don't want really!) then I think it's only fair everyone contributes to make it nice. Though not 85 cos he's got his own garden?!

This is a bloody nightmare!!

www.problemneighbours.co.uk/rights-trees-and-overhanging-branches.html

Post on here

Thanks Cody I have posted

Presumably nobody hangs their washing out there for the same reason as you, because it's not secure. Once you put up a fence at the back then other people might start putting theirs out too.

Agree with PP, if you plan on trying to sell in two years it is more important that you don't do anything to compromise a sale (neighbour dispute etc) than your short term comfort. I know it's frustrating, but I it's the nature of the property you bought. 2 years will fly by and you can be extra vigilant for issues in your next property.

Having lived in terraces on and off for many years I would say that the common land owned by you is equivalent to a village green. Or a public right of way. It is owned by someone, because if it wasn't owned that would create it's own set of problems. But the land in its entirety is for the use of all that are entitled to use it. And the owner must not do anything to take an unfair advantage over it.

So if you fenced off a section you would be depriving others of that area even though you say you wouldn't stop them using it.

My advice would be to arrange for the area to be tidied up and made use able. Get other properties to contribute to the cost. Then sell and buy somewhere else.

A shared space won't bother some people. It would probably appeal to some.

I think you're all right!

About the common land - that makes sense I suppose.

Do I have any come back on the estate agents who sold me this on the basis I could put this fence up?

I may propose a fence at the end and a general tidy up! However I am sure LL won't agree.

if I was buying a property like that for a client I would have to highlight the common area to them and let the know that the yard was not for their sole use. Did your solicitor not mention this when they reported the title to you? I work in Scotland, so don't know how the process usually goes down there.

I think I would do something along the lines of PoulterGoose's suggestion .

And definitely put a fence at the bottom so you're not open to the road .

Planting near your house would give you privacy and be so much more attractive than a fence ,adding more value to all the properties .You wouldn't be stopping their access ,preventing hanging rights or giving any land away .

Technically speaking ( tho I'm not a legal person ) I guess you could put a fence up with a gate so that access still possible .But I think that would be horrible for the houses that back on to the yard ,make them dark etc . And I think the LL would cause trouble .Though it's easy to say I'll take you to court - it would cost him a lot of money and he can't dictate who pays .

I thought the owner of the land almost dictated what happened - as say the freeholders do in leasehold properties -

There may be a route to follow - as in here's the plans - here's the cost - your share is X

Maybe if you get a few high quotes - the LL may be more open to a fence at your expense - I think you have the power here

your agent should not have told you you'd be able to put up a fence and as outnumb3red says your conveyancer should also have made the terms of access clear and explained to you what the meaning of "common yard" is under the terms of your title deeds.

Nobody told me it was a common yard!

Not the estate agents, the seller of the conveyancing solicitor

I did however ask for copy of the deeds which I read and obviously saw 'common yard' I questioned this with the seller and estate agents before even getting a solicitor and they said it was not a problem I could put a fence up and the only rights neighbours had were access and hanging!

The solicitor never mentioned it until I questioned it with them after the LL kicked off when I got a man to measure up for a fence!

If you can prove that they misled you about the common yard and your ability to fence it off, you could have a go at saying they failed to adequately represent the property, but given that the deeds do refer to a Common Yard and there was no fence present when you bought, I think you'd need some proof that you explicitly asked if you could fence off the garden and they said you could. If it's all verbal, it's probably going nowhere.

I'm not sure how well you'd be able to charge for the end fence, either. They should all be paying maintainence costs as you've outlined above but you're not maintaining an existing fence, you're adding a new one. I think you'd need to make a group decision on getting the fence if you intend to charge them for it but it's been a long time since I've looked at property law and it is very nuanced.

It's probably not worth the fight here, if he's been successful at getting a fence removed in the past and you want to sell soon, he's in a good position.

Although did you mention the lack of fence when you noticed the posts? Did you ask anyone where the fence had gone?

I think I possibly have some emails about it.. I will have to go through all my docs!

I did ask about the fence - estate agent didn't know bit told me they were sure we could have one

After we moved in LL said he'd forced prev owner to take it down

Prev owner denied this

Nobody actually explained where the fence had gone...

I've been screwed over haven't I! This is the first house I've bought and I am clearly very naive and stupid to have bought it! Cannot wait to get shut of the bloody thing!!

I doubt I can charge anyone for anything because LL won't pay and I don't see why 85 should because they're not even part of the 'common yard'

I'm soooooo furious and upset about the whole thing and wish I'd never bought it

Probably won't make any money on it either now!

You need to go to a property litigation solicitor and get clarification on the wording of your deeds (I would need to see the whole thing and not just snippets) and also get office cops of the deeds of all adjoining properties. Office copies are only £4 and you can get them very easily and quickly (online I think).

The reality is that they have a right of access which isn't the same as a right to pass over a defined area. Its arguably much broader and the poster who said about the "use the ashes" wording is correct in that it sounds problematic. In theory that could extend to any use e.g. BBQ

I have an area of land which other have the right to "pass and repass" over. IT says very clearly in my deeds and theirs that they have the right to pass and repass over a defined strip of land which is marked on the plans and which is 15 foot wide. We have fenced along that strip to give us privacy and to clearly define the part they can't go onto. We still own the strip but they can go up and down it all they like, 24 hours a day. We own it and so we have to maintain it (in your case your neighbours will only have to contribute if they are expressly required to do so and that won't include making it look pretty). We also put a gate at each end of the strip for security which one neighbour kicked off about but as long as we are not restricting access e.g. by locking the gate and not giving him a key the we are fine to do this.

Its a tricky area. Both DH and I are solicitors and still didn't find it straightforward.

A fence at the bottom would be an advantage. Ask another solicitor if you are able to do it. If its clear cut then go for it, hopefully by telling ll you will compromise - no inner fence and bottom fence at your cost. Then you can make it a really nice courtyard as stuff wont get nicked. Tell ll you plan to stay for life. (Or if selling in 2 years, dont bother)

Thank you redhat!
Nobody seems to be able to give us a definite answer and out solicitor just said that only a judge can really decide

I think I'll need to see another solicitor

It just seems such a waste to leave it as it is. It's a total eyesore and it could be really really nice!

I know two years isn't a long time but it is when you have a baby and a shit tonne of washing that you can't hang out!

I will find out about a fence at the end and see a solicitor / get a quote and see what LL says to that

Then I will buy planters like a pp suggested and 'pretty' my bit up

Fuck them I'm not prettying the whole thing up at my cost for their benefit!

Definitely don't take the word of any solicitor who works for the same from as your conveyancing solicitor. They will be panicking about being sued and so will have a conflict in advising you. Go to a completely separate firm and take advice. Get the office copies today online.

copy entries

In your shoes I would fence off a smaller defined area which can't be argued to interfere with their access to their properties or their hanging rights (in fact I'd erect lines for them - potentially linked up to the back boundary rather than the old position of 85's garage). I'd then sell the house on the basis that you own all of the land but you only treat a smaller patch as your garden, the rest is yours but others have access rights over it. I'd prettify that part but only to the extent necessary to prevent it from being an eyesore. You're not giving away that land, its still yours.

www.gov.uk/search-property-information-land-registry

working link