Taking kids abroad on holiday laws when no contact? Anyone know the law?

[Purplerainbow2]

Hi, I have dc and they do not see their dad. I found out he was a have toward them so I do not allow contact. Was avusive toward me when married. I know you have to have the other parents permission to take dc Abroad, but what happens if you do not have contact, if the other parent does not see them? Do you still need permission? I'm loathe to make any contact for the sake of a possible holiday....... It will drag up a whole heap of trouble to the point of not bothering to take them abroad on a holiday. Does anyone know the law if there is no contact with the other parent if you need permission? I can't afford to contact my solicitor over this.

Tia

How would you prove it prh47?

Take the birth certificate(s)?

No, the informing him is to cover your own back against an allegation of child abduction. I don't know what individual airlines do. However, I would be very surprised (although others can correct me if I am wrong) if most of them require a written document of consent for any adult travelling on their own with their own children. They must have tens of thousands a day and I cannot imagine that they would need written evidence for each of them. It might be an issue if you have a different surname to your kids, in which case you can take copies of birth certificates.

It depends on where you are travelling to as well. Within Europe, I can't imagine there being much of a problem, especially as so many airlines do online check-in etc. Of course, there is always a risk that the airline might demand evidence of written consent. It's just that ordinarily, they probably wouldn't.

If you apply for a specific issue order, you can apply for a child arrangements order at the same time. If your ex is a shit (which it sounds like he is), it's better that you get a CAO rather than having to make individual applications each time. If you start court proceedings, you may as well go the whole hog- it will be unpleasant whether you are just applying in respect of the holiday or for a CAO but at least with a CAO, you are covered for your kids' minority.

Obviously, the simplest thing would be just to get his permanent written consent, but sounds like he won't agree to that. He does sound like an idiot.

That's what the helpline said that each trip I would need to go to court to have relevant papers. Legally. He didn't know wether I could get a permanent paper to cover all possible trips abroad. I wouldn't have a problem applying to court if I could have a written legal paper that he has to sign about holidays abroad but the child arrangement order would be horrendous as that woul mention contact arrangements also. I can't go through court for that. I don't have the money for a solicitor and he is loaded. I would have to self represent and he would twist everything and be deceitful just to get at me. He is obsessed, I still 'owe' him. Despite he has been married since and now has another girlfriend. He still will not accept that I threw him out. This is a long time ago. He has mental health issues.

The helpline have to ensure that you stick to the law so they are likely to be quite cautious in what they advise. However, the legislation does not say anything about consent having to be in writing. Airlines or passport security may sometimes insist on seeing something in writing because that way they can cover their backs. However, they have so many passengers and so many potential security issues that I would be surprised if they pounced on a mum travelling with her kids and demanded to see evidence of dad's consent. That's not to say it never happens though.

A child arrangements order does not have to refer to contact. It can just set out with whom the child lives. Anyway, if you just applied about the holiday, he could just cross-apply for contact anyway and the court would have to deal with it at the same time. He sounds absolutely awful but it might be a relief to have things resolved and not to have a constant threat hanging over you.

You could get him to sign a letter or document confirming that he has no objections to you travelling with the kids for up to 4 weeks at a time. That should hopefully be fine for the airlines and would definitely protect you in respect of allegations of child abduction.

How old are dc?

He won't sign a letter as he won't 'do me any favours'. He will just bring up I'm stopping him seeing dc so he's doing me no favours. They are 10 and nearly 8.

I was also going to say you should see if there are any law centres in your area that might be able to act for you pro-bono. It's probably unlikely, but worth a try.

If you do go to court on your own, may I recommend an excellent book by Lucy Reed (a family law barrister) called Family Courts Without a Lawyer: A Handbook for Litigants in Person. It can help you make sense of the court process and understand the various stages. I hope it does not come to that but it is good to be prepared.

Thanks running. I'm already getting sick from stress generally. Going to court, mainly the effect it will have on dc but mainly dc1 who has involvement with Camhs.

I would just go and take the documents that prove you're their mother. The chances of being stopped are very slim. I certainly won't be letting my wanker ex stop my daughter from enjoying holidays just because he doesn't want anything to do with her.

But I have this worry for the next 10 years. No he wouldn't know we had gone abroad.... but knowing him he probably has a private detective following us.

I am in a similar position..We have been abroad twice..I won't contact ex for fear of opening up a can of worms.. I have just taken DS's birth certificate with me but it has been fine..

Starry what would you say if asked about ex permission though?

He sounds awful and manipulative. It also does not sound as if he has the dc's interests at heart because surely any decent parent would have immediately applied to court for contact rather than just using the lack of contact to manipulate their ex.

Depending on income, you might qualify for legal aid for mediation. However, as mediation is voluntary and he sounds uncooperative, I am not sure how successful it would be. It's something to think about and investigate anyway. It might be that he is less inclined to be an arse if there is a mediator present. No guarantees of course.

At 8 and 10, the dc are likely to have some views on whether they want to have contact. It entirely depends on the circumstances but where children are opposed to contact and there are allegations that the parent has been abusive to the children, the court has to think very carefully about whether they should be forced to go. It's more straightforward with older children- 8 and 10 is still on the cusp but it might be that indirect contact (emails, letters, cards, phone calls) would be a better option. So going to court does not have to be completely disastrous even if he does ask for contact.

Running I went to mediation last year when he was threatening court (my solicitor recommended it) I didn't know he had been abusive to the dc at that point but it all came flooding out when I had a meeting with a mediator, about him benign abusive toward me. She said do you want to sit in a room with him? I said no I'm scared. He will manipulate everyone. She said mediation isn't suitable when abuse had been present and sent him a letter telling him that. Naturally he just went off on one saying I was being unreasonable to the mediator and lying.

My solicitor said (about what contact he would be allowed) that it's very complex due to dc1 mental health but courts never encourage no contact with other parent and he would prob get contact centre. I couldn't cope with makings my kids go to a strange place with strangers, with me not being allowed to be present, to sit in a room with him and pretend to enjoy it and him scare and manipulate them to saying they want to see him.

How would you prove it prh47?

As runningincircles12 says the deciding factor, if you were not married to the father, is whether or not the father is named on the birth certificate. I must admit I assumed from your question that you were talking about situations where the mother may not even know who the father is, let alone naming him on the birth certificate.

At the end of the day any country is perfectly entitled to demand whatever documents it wants before allowing you to enter the country with your children in order to ensure that you are not abducting the children. It doesn't matter whether or not you think the demands are unreasonable.

My kids are 8 & 10 and I have taken them abroad a couple of times. We are going on holiday (abroad in May).

Last time (Portugal) DD (8) was asked who I was (different sur names). I have to admit I haven't even taken their birth certificates in the past but will do so this time.

They have had no contact with their dad for at least 18mths. My parents took them abroad several years ago (without me) and they took a letter of permission (from me) and birth certificates.

I cannot bear to contact ExH and have recently renewed one of the DCs passports and didn't put his details on the passport form. Everything came back ok.

Well, there is no 'rule' as to contact. The indirect means of contact that I mentioned are still classed as contact so if a court ordered email contact only, that would not be the same as no contact. But of course, supervised is an option and I agree that it is not pleasant for the kids. What I can say is that when I was in practice, a lot of violent non-resident parents who got supervised contact gave up on it sooner or later. Contact centres are generally not free- it can sometimes cost around £50 a session (in London anyway). A lot of them decide it's not worth it. But of course, this is all just speculation because it would all depend on what the Cafcass officer recommended, having spoken to the children.

Yes, mediation is not good when there has been abuse. Sadly because legal aid has been cut for legal representation, a lot of people are pressured into doing it anyway and not all mediators will automatically turn down cases where there is previous abuse. Sounds unsuitable in your case though.

If this were me (and this is in no way advice, legal or otherwise), I would be tempted to 'leave things' for a bit and stay under the radar. The longer he goes with no contact with the dc, the harder it will be for him to re-establish it and the older the dc will be (and more likely to have a clear opinion). Obviously the holiday thing is a problem and you would need to take a view on what to do there. There are no easy answers unfortunately and you won't truly be shot of him until the youngest dc is 18.