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Original poster

Taking kids abroad on holiday laws when no contact? Anyone know the law?

117 replies

Purplerainbow2 · 05/04/2016 09:13

Hi, I have dc and they do not see their dad. I found out he was a have toward them so I do not allow contact. Was avusive toward me when married. I know you have to have the other parents permission to take dc Abroad, but what happens if you do not have contact, if the other parent does not see them? Do you still need permission? I'm loathe to make any contact for the sake of a possible holiday....... It will drag up a whole heap of trouble to the point of not bothering to take them abroad on a holiday. Does anyone know the law if there is no contact with the other parent if you need permission? I can't afford to contact my solicitor over this.

Tia

OP posts:
NameChange30 · 05/04/2016 21:38

Sorry you couldn't get through to the helpline. And sorry I was pushing it, I'm sure it would be helpful but it's not ideal if you can't get through! With any luck it might be less busy another time, you never know.

I've found another organisation with similar information:
childlawadvice.org.uk/information-pages/abduction/
(See "How long can I take my child out of the UK for without breaking the law?")
Their explanation is a bit clearer, it mentions Residence Orders as well. Do you have a Residence Order, OP? If so you can take the children abroad without their father's consent for up to 28 days. If not, I think you will need his consent. But see this section (on the same page): "What happens if I illegally removed my child from the UK, but I was unaware that I was breaking the law?"

Child Law Advice have a helpline too (with longer opening hours) so it might be worth a try in case you have better luck getting through:
childlawadvice.org.uk/clas/contact-child-law-advice/

NameChange30 · 05/04/2016 21:56

"I know that is a big issue when children have different surname to mother. My passport is still in my old married name as I couldn't afford a new one with change of surname. The solicitor said legally I can travel with it but won't be able to renew it in that name, will have to change it."

You could take the children's birth certificates and the divorce and/or deed poll paperwork which shows your married name (which is presumably the name on the birth certificates) and the name you are using now. I'm sure that will be enough to prove you are their mother! As the divorce paperwork shows that they live with you, it might also be enough to prove that you can take them on holiday without permission from their father. But I'm not sure on that and would definitely get proper advice on it.

prh47bridge · 05/04/2016 22:56

As the divorce paperwork shows that they live with you, it might also be enough to prove that you can take them on holiday without permission from their father

Legally that is not enough. Without a residence order or child arrangements order giving her residence the OP needs her ex's consent to take her children out of the country.

NameChange30 · 05/04/2016 23:11

Yes I realise that prh. I just meant that it might satisfy some border officials. But of course there is no guarantee.

In reality would their father even know they had gone abroad on holiday, let alone take the OP to court over it? He doesn't even see them any more.

Of course none of us can advocate leaving the country without his permission (which technically would be breaking the law) but a lawyer should hopefully be able to advise about the implications and risks.

Fourormore · 06/04/2016 09:00

It doesn't matter whether the father knows or not - some border officials will want to see the correct paperwork and if the OP doesn't have it, she could find herself stranded, unable to enter the country she's travelled to.

KidaniVillage · 06/04/2016 09:30

I've taken my children to USA, Italy and France without DH. My passport was in my maiden name, so different from their surname. I've never been asked why the difference or for permission from DH.

Fourormore · 06/04/2016 09:44

I recently travelled to Europe with my children and step-children - five different surnames between us. The border officials didn't even look at our passports - didn't even count we had the right number of passports.

But he could have. He could have asked for all of the paperwork we had with us to prove that we were legally allowed to travel with the children we had with us.

Nobody is saying they will check, it's that they could check and if you don't have the paperwork, you're not going on holiday.

twentiethcenturybitch · 06/04/2016 10:02

I too have travelled (within EU) with my children without their father on several occasion with just our passports since they were tiny.

I also know a lot of mums in another EU country and on discussing this very issue found that it's very uncommon to be questioned, but even those who were stopped, always got through anyway, with or without extra documentation. I do think having the same name and (wrongly) being the mother rather than father is in your favour. Also, someone I know who's kids are mixed race was questioned when travelling with parents and a step-parent as, at a glance, they don't look like either of them. If kids look like you and are old enough to confirm you are their mother I cannot see border officials having the time or inclination to pursue it further.

I am normally a fervent rule follower and worrier, but in your situation, I would just go (within europe not US or Middle East etc) and take their birth certs as extra proof. I will probably get shot down for saying this but as for it being "against the law", I really don't think this is well known. I wasn't aware until I had already done it a few times. And since you are totally morally in the right to want to give your kids a holiday without tracking down their abusive father and risking bringing him back into their lives then there's a lot to be said for acting dumb about your knowledge of said law.

NameChange30 · 06/04/2016 10:10

I have to agree actually. I think I would take the passports, birth certificates and copies of divorce paperwork, and go. Then if it's an issue just plead ignorance of the law. I think that's less risky than opening up a can of worms with their father. But I would still want some reassurance from a solicitor about the risks and implications.

HopIt · 06/04/2016 10:20

I've always wondered how they check the validity of the letters from the NRP

Original poster
Purplerainbow2 · 06/04/2016 13:27

So you have to have a piece of paper, an actual letter from other birth patten stating 'i x father of dc confirm I have given consent for my child to travel abroad' ??

Iv just checked my paperwork and the only piece of paper I kept (as there was so many letters and crap) was the actual piece of paper confirming the divorce. I now know this was stupid.

OP posts:
Original poster
Purplerainbow2 · 06/04/2016 13:40

Iv just rung the child law advice. He basically said it's tough. That id need his permission each time. I said like what? A letter? He said each airline is different and I would have to check. He said other option is a court order which ex would be invited to attend. which would just bring in more abuse and harrassment. The guy mentioned a sworn affidavit (sp) but couldn't answer me if this was a once off or again I would need one each time I went abroad! Can't seem to get clear answers

OP posts:
Original poster
Purplerainbow2 · 06/04/2016 13:41

Oh and I can't apply for a child arrangement order

OP posts:
Original poster
Purplerainbow2 · 06/04/2016 13:56

I just thought, I flew to Spain couple of years ago with dc (before I remarried) me and dc same surname on passport and with my parents. I wasn't asked at all. Ex knew they were going but no paperwork etc was written up. What if it was just me and dc that went abroad? The 3 of us, same names on passports. Do they check all families that have the same name??

OP posts:
Fourormore · 06/04/2016 14:15

Why can't you apply for an order? It's a specific issue order that you want really anyway.

If you go abroad, you may not be stopped. Like you said, you weren't before.

The bottom line is this - your current circumstances mean that you either need permission each time - and yes, a letter consenting to each trip is ideal - or you need a court order. You can either get an order for each trip or you can get an order that says something like "Purplerainbow2 is permitted to take Child1 and Child2 on holidays abroad for up to 28 days duration. Purplerainbow's ex must be supplied with a copy of all travel details 6 weeks in advance if these are requested by him."

If you do not have this permission then (A) you'll be breaking the law and (B) you could land in your destination country only to be refused entry.

Original poster
Purplerainbow2 · 06/04/2016 14:19

That's what they said on the child law advice line I just rang.

OP posts:
Original poster
Purplerainbow2 · 06/04/2016 14:20

They said I have to go to court each time I want to go abroad. So £215 court fee each time, having ex kicking off each time

OP posts:
AnneElliott · 06/04/2016 14:29

I can't advise you to break the law ( and I'm not clear on what the position is). I can only say that having worked previously for immigration and I have done the job of border entry, their main concern will be that you're the mother and that the kids are not being trafficked.

My sis in law was stopped with her daughter ( my brother didn't go with them) and the issue was she couldn't prove that she was her daughter. She was told to travel with her birth certificate in future. They had no issues/ asked nothing about permission from the other parent.

Fourormore · 06/04/2016 14:43

You don't need to go to court each time. We have an order that says similar to what I wrote above.

I don't know why they've advised you that you can't apply for CAO. That seems very strange.

NameChange30 · 06/04/2016 14:59

"Iv just checked my paperwork and the only piece of paper I kept (as there was so many letters and crap) was the actual piece of paper confirming the divorce."
Is it worth asking the solicitor if they have copies of the key paperwork? They might charge an admin fee to send you a copy but could be worth it.

When you get your new passport in your new name, you will probably need to take your marriage certificate as well as your children's birth certificates to prove that you're their mother (as it will show your change of name since they were born). I think it's likely that in practice you won't need more than that to travel abroad with the children (with or without your new DH). However, as PPs and the helpline have said, strictly speaking it's against the law to take them abroad without permission from their father, and while it's likely you will get away without a letter or consent order to say you have permission, there is always a risk you could possibly be stopped without it.

Could you write to their father telling them about the holiday and enclosing a template letter that he just has to sign and return - something that says he gives his permission for you to take them on holiday abroad for up to 28 days, at any time from now until the youngest is 18? You could send it recorded delivery so he has to sign for it, which means you'll have proof that he received it, even if he never replies. Then you could at least prove that you notified him about the holiday and asked for his permission. And you never know - he might have a moment of madness, sign the letter and send it back.

Original poster
Purplerainbow2 · 06/04/2016 15:38

I haven't actually booked the holiday yet. I can't afford holiday plus £200 court fees. The guy in the advice line said each airline is different as to what they accept so just a letter may not be sufficient

OP posts:
cestlavielife · 06/04/2016 16:23

www.gov.uk/permission-take-child-abroad

www.government.nl/documents/forms/2014/02/06/consent-letter-for-minors-travelling-abroad

my dd recently traveled with my sister (her aunt) - i did a letter on the above layout from the link got it witnessed, my sister also had dd's birth cert copy (regualr copy not a certified copy) and copy court order saying children live with me. uk border looked at all documents. but it was fine.

if your divorce child arrangements says children live with you then that might be enough, under the 28-day rule.

my dc have different surname to me i always take birth certs; usually border have just asked them if I am their mother...

if you take birth certs, marriage./divorce certs, copy of anything saying children live with you - that may be enough for some countries.

prh47bridge · 06/04/2016 17:00

if your divorce child arrangements says children live with you then that might be enough, under the 28-day rule

A statement on the divorce forms that the children will live with the OP (which is all I think she's got) is not enough. It needs a residence order or a child arrangements order giving her residence. She does not appear to have either.

Original poster
Purplerainbow2 · 06/04/2016 18:38

I can't go to the court to apply for a residence order or child arrangements order as it will just drag everything up. I'm not allowing him to see do as I found out a short while ago he abused them. He abused me through out the marriage. So there is no contact as the children are petrified of him (as am I) and I can not go to court as it will cause so many problems for me. He will start kicking off and making sure they give him contact

OP posts:
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