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Original poster

Taking kids abroad on holiday laws when no contact? Anyone know the law?

117 replies

Purplerainbow2 · 05/04/2016 09:13

Hi, I have dc and they do not see their dad. I found out he was a have toward them so I do not allow contact. Was avusive toward me when married. I know you have to have the other parents permission to take dc Abroad, but what happens if you do not have contact, if the other parent does not see them? Do you still need permission? I'm loathe to make any contact for the sake of a possible holiday....... It will drag up a whole heap of trouble to the point of not bothering to take them abroad on a holiday. Does anyone know the law if there is no contact with the other parent if you need permission? I can't afford to contact my solicitor over this.

Tia

OP posts:
ivykaty44 · 06/04/2016 18:43

I have taken my two dds by plane to Australia, France, portugal, several times the latter. I have driven to Spain and France.

I have never ever been asked if I had my ex's permission anywhere.

NameChange30 · 06/04/2016 18:57

What kind of abuse towards them? Did you ever report it to social services or the police? If not, it's not too late. It would certainly be a good idea to have it on record in case he ever tries to enforce contact.

I wonder what Rights of Women would say.
They are experienced in advising women with abusive partners and ex-partners, so they might be able to offer more sensitive/tailored advice that the child law advice people. Might be worth persisting with their helpline.

Original poster
Purplerainbow2 · 06/04/2016 19:07

I can't cope with it Emma. If I went to court it would cost me over £10k in solicitor fees. And possibly more. I don't have money, he does. He is so conniving he sweet talks everyone. I can't cope with dragging it all up, I can't cope with the poor dc going through cafcass interviews and everyone cross examining them. Dc1 has asd and severe anxiety. A lot of this because of ex. He's so messed up mentally I can't make it worse for him by dragging it all back up. If I made any contact with ex it would cause me so much stress even some thing as petty as going on a holiday he would turn into something massive

OP posts:
NameChange30 · 06/04/2016 19:42

OK, love. Please don't feel you have to write to him if you don't want to. I didn't realise he had been abusive to the children when I suggested that. I can totally understand why you don't want to contact him at all. I just think it might be a good idea to report the abuse to social services and/or the police - not in order to press charges or take him to court - but just to get it on the record in case you need it in future. For example, if he ever decides to take you to court.

Does he pay any child maintenance?

NameChange30 · 06/04/2016 19:52

Another thing. If you report his abuse towards the children you may be able to get legal aid.

"Legal aid is available for applications for a Child Arrangements Order, Prohibited Steps Order or Specific Issue Order if you or your child have suffered or are at risk of violence or abuse from the other party in the last 24 months"
from childlawadvice.org.uk/information-pages/legal-aid-for-family-law-matters/

But see this page for evidence that is needed:
childlawadvice.org.uk/information-pages/legal-aid-if-your-child-is-at-risk-of-abuse/

Original poster
Purplerainbow2 · 06/04/2016 19:52

He had been threatening for a while. As I was stopping him seeing them. Then end of last year I had a letter from his solicitor stating contact was going to commence as it was in the past (he refused to see them about 2 years ago, sporadic meetings etc before I knew what had been going on) any he is a bully so I went to solicitor spend a lot of money and he drafted a letter back to his solicitor staring that wasn't going to happen. I went to a mediator who said as domestic able had happened mediation wasn't suitable, they wrote to him saying mediation wasn't suitable. He then backed off saying he couldn't afford to take me to court. I keep getting random texts every couple month him having ago about me 'stealing' his time with dc. He's so controlling. Even his parents (that's a diff story) are evil and say he has done nothing wrong and it's all me and that I'm making allegations up. I have witness to some things and since I found out, I brought it up with dc and it broke my heart, they said they were too scared to tell me.

Yea he pays maintenance as I invved what was the Csa a few years ago. I just don't know what to do. I don't want to have to go begging to him because I want to take my dc to have a well deserved holiday abroad for they next over 10 years Sad

OP posts:
Original poster
Purplerainbow2 · 06/04/2016 19:55

I don't think I understand he link about the 'evidence' part. It's going over my head. He has no conviction of child abuse and I can't prove anything as its out word against his .

OP posts:
NameChange30 · 06/04/2016 20:08

I don't know if there is often any more evidence of abuse than the victim's testimony, but people are still convicted of it. However, I don't think he needs to be convicted. I think that you only need one thing from that list. For example, #2 (a formal police caution) might be easier to get. Maybe you could ask RoW or Victim Support for advice on that.

However, if you think it would be difficult to get the evidence needed for legal aid, you do have a few other options for free or low cost legal help. There's a good list here:
www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-rights/legal-system/taking-legal-action/help-with-legal-costs-free-or-affordable-help/

I agree, btw, that it's not fair for the children not to be able to go on holiday abroad without his permission Sad There are things you can do about it but they require reporting his abuse and going down the legal route - so it all depends whether you are willing and able to do that.

MypocketsarelikeNarnia · 06/04/2016 20:24

FWIW I travelled with ds once before his adoption (and therefore name change) was finalised - so different surnames - and we were stopped on both leaving and entering the UK.

For me it's the fact that they could just stop you going. It's a potentially incredibly costly gamble...

EnglishFern · 06/04/2016 21:01

Bear this in mind:

There is no proof at passport control of your marital status. What if you're still married but children's dad is working, busy or just not travelling with you? No legal requirement to prove you then have consent. How would they even know to ask you if you were married or divorced? They have no right to that information.

It is vanishingly rare to get asked anything at passport control anyway. I have a different name to my DC and all I have to show is that we are related. No one gives a shiny shite where their dad is.

There is no proof at passport control that you have or do not have a residence order. Passport control do not know about family law and would not think to ask. Particularly passport control in other countries with other rules. There's no earthly way you would be able to show the relevant legal right to take your kids out of the country in every country you visit. There are different rules everywhere.

The whole thing is ridiculously onerous because the courts know and recognise that there's no real way any of this can be controlled. So they throw the responsibility of it onto the parents and forget about it. It's a bullshit system.

If they ask where their dad is, tell them he's dead. Then what the fuck are they going to do? There's no requirement to produce a death certificate because you have every right to go on holiday with your kids!

It's such shit, it makes me really cross.

Fourormore · 06/04/2016 21:33

Its nothing to do with being married or not at all. You have to have proof of permission from everyone that holds parental responsibility for the child. That's the same whether you're married, cohabiting, separated or divorced. If the other parent is dead you would indeed need to produce a death certificate instead of a letter of consent.

Just because people who haven't been stopped love to pipe up on these posts doesn't mean it doesn't happen. How many people speed while driving every day? They aren't all caught but it doesn't mean they won't be in future or that others won't be.

EnglishFern · 06/04/2016 21:44

Four I agree, just because I've never been stopped doesn't mean the OP won't be.

However, if I'm travelling in and out of the U.K., I can legitimately claim (and it's true) that I'm not resident in the uk and don't have the necessary documentation because I got divorced in my host country.

I'm travelling on uk passports though, but the rules don't apply. So my question is how on earth can passport control check? That I don't need documents but the OP does - how would they know? And therefore how can they police it?

Fourormore · 06/04/2016 21:49

If you're travelling in and out of any country, it's your responsibility to be aware of that countries travel requirement. South Africa, for example, is quite strict on this rule. If you claim ignorance then it's perfectly acceptable for that country to refuse you entry.

EnglishFern · 06/04/2016 21:53

How the hell would you find out?

Seriously there's no way you'd be able to do it. I know just from being British but living in the EU that I simply do not have the relevant bits of paper to show xyz in each country.

So say for instance that in the UK you need a residence order to obtain X. In my host country there's no such thing as a residence order, so what do you do? I've experienced this before - "sorry without a residence order we can't do X" "I don't live in the uk. I don't have one" "well without one we can't do X".... repeat ad nauseam.....

Not having a go, just genuinely puzzled.

ivykaty44 · 06/04/2016 21:59

four it's the people that have been stopped though, they aren't being asked for proof of permission

They are being asked to provide they are the parent

EnglishFern · 06/04/2016 22:03

I have to prove I'm the parent every time. DC has a copy of their birth certificate in their passports as its every time now.

Never asked for permission.

LindorBunny · 06/04/2016 22:09

I am in no way advocating this, but a friend wrote a letter which stated that it was from her ex (who is an utter dick) and signed it herself. She and child flew in and out of the U.K. Several time a year and weren't ever actually questioned, but as she said, how would a random custom official be able to prove that the letter wasn't from the father? (What she actually said, was 'How would they know, they're not fucking CSI'.)

I have been stopped on several occasions, but only to ask my relationship to DC - we have a different surname. I wave the birth certificate and they send us on our merry way. Nobody have ever asked if I have permission to take my child anywhere, they just care that I'm not child smuggling (and only on the way in, they don't give a toss on the way out).

EnglishFern · 06/04/2016 22:12

A very good point Lindor.

How would they know who had signed what? There's no rule that says it's got to be witnessed or whatever.

I'm still wanting to know whether uk authorities would expect a non uk resident to have a piece of paper which only uk residents know about or are entitled to.

prh47bridge · 07/04/2016 00:19

I'm travelling on uk passports though, but the rules don't apply

The rules DO apply. If you wish to remove a child from the UK you must have the appropriate consent or a court order. The relevant law does not contain any provision restricting its application to children normally resident in the UK. As a non-UK resident you would be expected to have the relevant evidence to enter the country in the first place. And don't forget that you may well be asked for the relevant evidence when you reach passport control at your destination. These are not just UK rules. Many countries have similar rules to prevent child abduction.

EnglishFern · 07/04/2016 07:47

T where I live I don't need consent for under 30 days, in any case, so I wouldn't need any documentation?

VinceNoirLovesHowardMoon · 07/04/2016 07:50

Surely this is a law that only comes into effect if the other parent objects?
Parents take their Children abroad without the other parent all the time and border officials do not ask for the other parent's consent very often. I take my ds in and out of the U.K. Regularly, I only need his birth certificate as we have different surnames. His dad does too, he has only been questioned once and that I believe is because he's non eu and was travelling by car - it was anti terror checks not regular parent child checks.
If I were you I'd just go.

Original poster
Purplerainbow2 · 07/04/2016 07:51

I wish I could afford a solicitor to set things straight for me. The help lines just confuse matters and don't know half the information I ask

OP posts:
EnglishFern · 07/04/2016 08:26

Do you need consent as a married person to take the kids away without your spouse? Legally?

Because if you don't it makes a mockery of the rule that divorced parents have to prove at any moment that they are allowed to take their OWN kids on holiday.

Fourormore · 07/04/2016 08:31

Do you need consent as a married person to take the kids away without your spouse? Legally?

Yes.

EnglishFern · 07/04/2016 08:40

Ooh interesting! Thanks