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Legal matters

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you have any legal concerns we suggest you consult a solicitor.

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Original poster

Taking kids abroad on holiday laws when no contact? Anyone know the law?

117 replies

Purplerainbow2 · 05/04/2016 09:13

Hi, I have dc and they do not see their dad. I found out he was a have toward them so I do not allow contact. Was avusive toward me when married. I know you have to have the other parents permission to take dc Abroad, but what happens if you do not have contact, if the other parent does not see them? Do you still need permission? I'm loathe to make any contact for the sake of a possible holiday....... It will drag up a whole heap of trouble to the point of not bothering to take them abroad on a holiday. Does anyone know the law if there is no contact with the other parent if you need permission? I can't afford to contact my solicitor over this.

Tia

OP posts:

titchy · 07/04/2016 09:27

I'm not sure what's confusing you. The family lawyers on here and the helpline have both said the same thing. Namely that in the absence of a contact/child arrangement order you technically need his permission to take the children abroad. The chances are that you won't be questioned, and all will be well. But you do risk being denied entry and hanging round airside waiting for the airline to take you back home.

Original poster

Purplerainbow2 · 07/04/2016 09:50

No titchy in well aware about the consent. That's not what Iv said I don't understand. The helpline did not know the answers to some questions and contradicted something else I was told.

OP posts:

NameChange30 · 07/04/2016 09:52

Yeah that's why I shared the info about legal aid and other free/low cost legal help. I do think it would put your mind at rest to get some proper face to face legal advice.

VinceNoirLovesHowardMoon · 07/04/2016 10:07

Child arrangements order costs about £200 to get. Maybe you could get one for this type of situation.

SoupDragon · 07/04/2016 10:14

According to the DC, XH was asked where the children's mother was when he took the skiing this year. He just said "at home" or "not here" or something.

No one has ever asked me when I've travelled alone with them and I don't think either of us have ever had to prove we had permission. We do all have the same surname though. Also, there would never be a problem of the other parent giving that permission.

I can understand why you wouldn't want to take the risk though.

cestlavielife · 07/04/2016 12:06

if the ex contests the order it may cost a lot more in terms of fees, solicitor, time etc.

TeapotDictator · 07/04/2016 12:19

Why do you think this would cost you £10k in solicitors fees?

Original poster

Purplerainbow2 · 07/04/2016 12:42

No that £10k reference was to Emma talking about me taking him to court to stop him legally of any contact at all. I said I can't afford it as that was what my solicitor said it would prob cost roughly and possibly more for the whole process due to what he has done to us all.

OP posts:

NameChange30 · 07/04/2016 12:51

What do you think about my suggestion to report his abuse towards the children and look into getting legal aid or free/cheap legal help from another source? Are you considering it?

Original poster

Purplerainbow2 · 07/04/2016 12:55

I did consider it 6 months ago but the stress made me so Ill. I ended up on anti depressants as I was petrified just leaving the house thinking he was out there. I can't have him contacting me again and starting it all off again. Iv just found out this week a friend of mine has died and I'm having trouble with eldest dc mental health. It's all getting on top of me to be honest.

OP posts:

babybarrister · 07/04/2016 13:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NameChange30 · 07/04/2016 13:07

Sorry to hear about your friend and that you're struggling. Could you talk to your GP about some counselling? Take care of yourself.

Original poster

Purplerainbow2 · 07/04/2016 13:14

Thanks Emma, I did try 6 months ago with gp but waste of time. There isn't any counselling services in my area on the nhs. Just some cbt 'mindfulness' course which I've already done in the past. I can't afford to see a counsellor privately either.

OP posts:

NameChange30 · 07/04/2016 13:21

What about the Freedom Programme? The local courses are free. If there's one near you it could be very helpful to go.

There might be charities that offer free or low cost counselling in your area. If you want to look into it, you could start with Mind:
mind.org.uk/information-support/local-minds

Original poster

Purplerainbow2 · 07/04/2016 18:59

Thanks Emma but the freedom one doesn't offer anything any where near me. I searched and searched everywhere 6 months ago. No charities me to offer counselling and no one who accepted donations.

OP posts:

Original poster

Purplerainbow2 · 07/04/2016 18:59

Thanks for the links though. I appreciate a it.

OP posts:

runningincircles12 · 07/04/2016 21:46

Sorry, haven't had time to read the whole thread but just thought I would clarify the legal position for you if still unclear. I am a former solicitor, specialising in family law.

Your ex-H pas parental responsibility for the kids, as do you. PR is not affected by whether the parent has contact with the children. However, day to day, the resident parent can exercise PR independently of the non-resident parent.

Under the Child Abduction Act 1984, it is a criminal offence of child abduction to remove a child from the jurisdiction without the consent of everyone with PR.
The only exception is where there is a child arrangements order (previously a residence order) in force, allowing the person with whom the child lives to take him/her out of the jurisdiction without the consent of others with PR.

There is also a defence that the 'abductor' reasonably believed that the other person consented. Ignorance of the law is no defence.

If you just took them, it might not be an issue at customs. Sometimes customs require a letter from the non-resident parent, but they might not ask. Your divorce papers aren't going to be of any use.

However, if your ex for some reason alerted the authorities, you could be arrested for child abduction (although in this situation I doubt you would be severely punished- more likely to be a caution).

Therefore, unless you have a court order, you cannot go. Some options for you are:

Email your ex, tell him about the holiday (don't ask him for permission) with dates and location. If he does not respond, you can say that you reasonably thought he consented, as you did not hear back from him. Make sure it is in writing for evidence.

Apply to court for a specific issue order under s 8 of the Children Act 1989 requesting that the court grants permission for the holiday. You would be very likely to get the order.

Seek to formalise arrangements by having a consent order drawn up and sealed by the court or apply for a child arrangements order if there is no agreement. This might backfire in case he suddenly becomes interested in the kids again and you have to go through supervised contact and the like.

However, don't just chance it as things can look very bad if you get caught. Hope this helps a little and that you can get things sorted out.

runningincircles12 · 07/04/2016 21:47

Sorry, should have added that where you have a court order, it allows you to take the children out of the jurisdiction for a maximum of 28 days. But I think a previous poster has pointed that out.

Bumply · 07/04/2016 22:29

I carry birth certificates as my boys have different surnames and I have been asked to prove I'm their mother.
I wasn't married to their Dad and they were born before 2003 so he doesn't have parental responsibility.
I've never been asked if I had permission to take them abroad, but just wondering how I would prove I had never been married if I was asked by customs.

BlenheimBouquet · 07/04/2016 23:14

What would you do if you'd got pg by AI? Or a one night stand and never seen him again?

It's so unworkable.

prh47bridge · 08/04/2016 00:43

What would you do if you'd got pg by AI? Or a one night stand and never seen him again?

In both cases the father would not have PR so you would be at liberty to take your children out of the country whenever you wanted without needing anyone's consent.

Original poster

Purplerainbow2 · 08/04/2016 06:00

Thanks running, yes I'm aware of those things that you have mentioned now. I want to know if I'm able to go to court WITHOUT ex having to be there to obtain a PERMANENT permission to take them out of the country within 28 days without getting his permission. I can not go back through court for residency orders etc as it will get far too messy.

OP posts:

runningincircles12 · 08/04/2016 06:43

Unfortunately you would not be able to apply to court without ex being there. He would need to be informed of the proceedings. I can understand your reluctance to start proceedings though but there really is no other way around it if you want a court order.

If you just send him a brief email telling him about the holiday (not asking) then ball's in his court. If he hasn't bothered doing anything yet about getting contact with the kids, would he really start fussing about a holiday? Obviously I don't know him so it may well be that he would. He wouldn't really have a leg to stand on if he went to court to stop you (they aren't going to deny a mum taking kids for a short holiday).

As prh47bridge correctly states, artificial insemination does not grant parental responsibility. In fact, the law does not even recognise a sperm donor as a parent, let alone give him parental responsibility. This situation would not come up (unless it's DIY sperm donation).

In the case of a one night stand, if the father is named on the birth certificate (and the birth was post-2003), he will have PR and his consent would be needed. If he is not on the birth certificate or the child was born pre-2003, he does not have PR and consent would not be needed.

As I said before, it is fine if you reasonably believe the other person to be consenting. You don't need formal written permission each time. However, in this situation, OP should ideally inform the father to protect herself more than anything.

In a situation where the non-resident parent does not have contact and has shown no interest in having contact, you could probably assume that he has no objections. However, I am not sure that is the case here.

In practice of course, OP would probably 'get away with it'. I doubt she would get stopped by officials at passport control. Her ex might not even know the law and hopefully even if he got wind of them being abroad, would not call the police and make a huge fuss. Even if the police were called, this may not result in the OP being prosecuted. However, I cannot advise the OP to do that of course.

www.gov.uk/permission-take-child-abroad

Original poster

Purplerainbow2 · 08/04/2016 07:24

But Iv read on here you have to have certain papers to prove I have ex permission to take them abroad running? The helpline I rang said each airline is different as to what they accept. So me proving I have told him they are going isn't enough according to what Iv been told on here? You need permission of all with PR but you need proof to be able to show that? So I know I can apply for a court order as evidence I have ex permission but I can't get a court order (even with ex knowledge) that says I can take them abroad and not have to ask him each time? If that's the case I will have to pay £215 each time I want to go abroad to get a piece of paper from the court to say I have ex permission!!

OP posts:

Original poster

Purplerainbow2 · 08/04/2016 07:24

Oh and ex def knows the laws, he likes to site then to me every couple of months

OP posts:

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