Can the local authority force DH to house his estranged daughter if her mother dies?

[birdsfoot]

DH has two daughters. One, A level student aged 18, sees us and the other does not. For the last 9 months his younger D (12yo)has had no contact with him (her choice). She has stopped going to school, started hanging out in town at night, smoking weed, drinking etc. Her mother is unable to cope, though she encouraged her D to stop seeing DH, and has become more and more ill with the effects of stress.

We hear from the older D that mother's health is spiralling downhill and she fears she will suffer an early death. When the older sister says to the younger one "Shape up, or mum will die and you'll end up in foster care" the response is "no, I'll just have to stay at dad's. Even though I hate him, it'll be better than being in a home."

What is the legal position on this? Can the local authority make us take the child. DH is not consulted about anything the child does. He pays maintenance, but apart from this has nothing to do with the child as she has said she has "divorced" him.

The OP implies that the DSD's behaviour is worsened by the parenting of her mother. In that case maybe her behaviour would improve if she was 'forced' to live with her father.

I also dont see the choice as between 'care' and OP and her DP taking her in. If the elder sister is 18 then wouldn't ss prefer her to take on guardianship as an alternative to care or unwilling relatives?

Given the girl's behaviour at the moment I'd be surprised if ss weren't already involved and discussing alternatives to residency with the mother.

I really don't understand the question to be honest. Surely any of us can call social services and say that we can't cope with our children and want them taken into care? Or we'll throw them out on the street and see how they cope on their own.

Rhadegunde - are you actually a social worker?

'The OP clearly recognises she and her DH (from experience) cannot cope with this girl. '

This is his own young DD! He deals with it, that is what parents do, they do not give up on a child who is only 12 yrs old. (I suspect OP doesn't want to deal with it, but when she married DH she got his DD for life, for better and for worse-he didn't come alone.)

What an assumption to make!

I was a lone parent with a child, my DH was getting my DD for life-I didn't come alone. DCs come first and it is a huge honour to be given a relationship with someone else's DC-not one where you say 'I don't want them'!
The DD is a child, she is part of DH.

You give DCs unconditional love and so you don't opt out when the going gets tough-not with a 12 yr old anyway.

If you meet a man with a child you either accept the child or walk away.

Lets get some things straight.

He still sees his elder daughter, so presumably he's not a monster (as some seem to think without haveing met him).

The decision to end the relationship was the daughter's, not his.

He has tried, together with birdsfoot, to seek prefessional help for the girl.

She hates him. She is extremely disruptive. She might be beyond parental control. This is not necessarily the fault of the parent, or the child.

Being beyond parental control is one of the situations in which a child can go in to care. If it applies to this child it is one of the reasons why she is likely to be suffering harm. She is behaving like this eben though she apparently has a relationship with her mother. I don't understand why some of the more extreme posters in this thread think that the father could do a better job.

As it is clear from one of the earlier posts that father is onvolved with professional agencies regarding the situation, he is, in my opinion, discharging his duty to the child.

I don't think he should be ready to steam in if the mother dies and take the child home with him just to satisfy the notion of some of you here that the child must always live with a parent, whatever the circumstances, and hang the consequences. If the mother dies it won't necessarily be up to the father in any event. I am sure that social services will have a view, and if they feel it wouldn't be in the child's best interests to be placed with the father they will apply for a care order. However SS have budgetary considerations, and may feel that it's the cheapest option to place the child with her father, even though it may notnecessarily be the best.

Of course the death of the mother may cause the child to reevaluate her relationship with the father. The OP merely wanted to know whether SS could force them to take the child on the death of the mother. They feels clearly that it might not be in the child's best interest to be placed with him. They ought to receive understanding, sympathy and guidance from people here.

'discharging his duty to the child.'

The poor, poor child, no wonder she has problems! How cold. I couldn't bear to think that my parents would 'discharge their duty'! Where is the love?!!!!She is crying out for help and it isn't local authority help she is crying out for. I would never marry a person who thinks their child is a duty-in fact I don't think they deserve to have one!

Just get over it. You're family is obviously so perfect that you've come on here to gloat at the problems that others face.

Cretin

If you don't recognise that parents have a duty to their children I pity you.

Exoticfruits, you presume too much and clearly have not read (or understood perhaps) my posts. You speak only from your own experience. Don't worry, you're obviously in the right place.

For 3 years my dh had 50/50 care of both his dds. We became a couple, i accepted them as three, one of whom had mh problems prior to me being around. Dsd2 grew older and her mh problems became more severe. Apparently preteen hormones can have this effect. Result was combination of mh problems and normal 10/11/12 yr old stuff. Most dcs at this sort of age need boundaries, ground rules and routine. Yes, and of course love, companionship, friends, treats, respect etc etc, before all you judgement tw*ts sitting there on your high horses start saying "oooh your a bit strict and heartless aren't you!". Back to rules and routine... we have them, her mother doesn't. Her mum likes to get home from work and go to bed with a packet of biscuits and a cup of tea, watch wall-to-wall soaps and fall asleep. Dsds choose a meal-for-one from the fridge, microwave it and spend the evening unmonitored on the computer,tv, xbox. No bed times, meal times, household chores, compulsory school, sanctions applied for violence or rudeness, monitoring of time out of the house etc. Dsd1 is mature and copes, but dsd2 will literally be in town smoking and drinking at midnight and be posting sexually explicit stuff on formspring at 3am. Obviously our house seemed a drag compared and dsd2 started complaining about the "regime": 9pm bed on school nights, meals mostly at the table, hang up your coat etc. Yawn. We dug our heels in - not wanting to set a precedent and then have 5 rebellious kids bossing us about and doing nothing to contribute to the home! Dsd started saying to her mum I don't want to go to dad's, and rather than saying "Well, you have to and that's that." she said OK don't. And she doesn't. Short of physically bundling her into the car, carrying her up our steps and locking the door, we can't make her. I'm sure if we did, you'd see it as an overbearing man and a child protection issue!

Darleneconnor - you hit the nail on the head. Her behaviour is now worse than ever because she is only "parented" (word used advisedly) by her mother. But, as I say above, we couldn't force her.

DSD1 is six years older than DSD2 though, it's not surprising she is better able to cope with a chaotic homelife. I think you are absolutely right to have boundaries and I don't think anyone would criticise you for that. But the difference in parenting styles must be hugely difficult for her so I'm not surprised she's rebelling.

I can see that she has huge problems and while the mother is there there is no way to resolve them. The problem only manifests if the mother dies, and that might not happen, then she has a simple choice, she accepts your way of life and boundries or you need outside help.I think that at the moment you can do nothing but that if she were to come to you you need outside help because she would have bereavement problems on top of anything else.
I am not a cretin, I seem to have underestimated the problem, but I still find 'duty of care' like something from the Victorian workhouse! If I was 12 yrs old and being treated as a 'duty of care' I would rebel bigtime too! The more unloveable a DC seems-the more they are crying out for it-and the more they repel it. With the mother the way she is your hands are somewhat tied.

OP are ss aware that the mother is neglecting her? It sounds bery much from your last post that her behaviour is caused by her home environment rather than a MH problem. What specific condition do you/yourDP/her GP etc think she has?

Given the choices between 'do what she wants' at her Mums and 'stick to the (reasonable) rules' at yours it's no wonder a 12yo would choose the former.

Who's to say that if she didnt have her mum anymore then she would adapt to your home and rules given a short time to adjust. Otherwise she probably will end up the responsibility of the older daughter who will probably keep her to avoid being seperated/her going into care. I cant imagine the 18yo will be too happy with your DP for that.

Has he/you discussed this with her?

I've seen babies withdrawing from heroin whose parents turn up late because they've had to 'score' A toddler not interacting with his mum in any way because her heroin is more important than the child. A toddler so neglected she almost died from anaemia caused by nits! These a real cases of neglect.

I am in no way implying this has been the case with the 12 year old DD, but the issues of neglect are still there. This type of neglect will result in serious mental health issues with young children (attachment disorder), not helped by parental seperation. People here are assuming this is just normal 12 year old 'naughtiness' it clearly isn't, and everyone involved needs professional help.

To say and 18 year old sister can take charge of an out of control 12 year old and succeed where adults and professionals have failed is absurd.

the reality is that if mum dies there will need to be serious discussionof where the 12 year old should be placed given her Mh and behavioural issues. regardless of the how adn why of them. she needs intensive trained help - perhaps beyond most parents.

if dad cant cope (for whatever reasons) then he should say that when the time comes.

i dont see that the 18 year old should be expected to do so!

if the 12 year old turns oround and says "i want to live with dad its better than care" then they have a problem - but actually it will still be the adutls who decide what is best for her.

dad can say to SS- it is not in her best interest to live here she needs intensive 24 hour curriculum at a residential school for emotional and behavioural difficulties/she needs experienced and trained foster carers / etc.

birdsfoot - be proactive now - suggest dad speaks with SS and asks them to organize a famiy group conference involving all parties - or a profressionals meeting invovleing all profressionals invovled in her care and the mother's care (if the mother is getting any input).

he can take action now to ensure Ss fully aware of the situation.

anyway right now the mother isnt dead is she?
unless you have definitive news of a terminal illness then it speculation?

in meantime dad should continue to flag his concerns aboud the 12 year old with SS and CAMHS so they fully aware and can take action or not. if mother's health is really poor then that should be flagged to SS as the 12 year old is extremely vulnerable.

turning the 12 year old's life around is going to take more than dad, in any case.