Can the local authority force DH to house his estranged daughter if her mother dies?

[birdsfoot]

DH has two daughters. One, A level student aged 18, sees us and the other does not. For the last 9 months his younger D (12yo)has had no contact with him (her choice). She has stopped going to school, started hanging out in town at night, smoking weed, drinking etc. Her mother is unable to cope, though she encouraged her D to stop seeing DH, and has become more and more ill with the effects of stress.

We hear from the older D that mother's health is spiralling downhill and she fears she will suffer an early death. When the older sister says to the younger one "Shape up, or mum will die and you'll end up in foster care" the response is "no, I'll just have to stay at dad's. Even though I hate him, it'll be better than being in a home."

What is the legal position on this? Can the local authority make us take the child. DH is not consulted about anything the child does. He pays maintenance, but apart from this has nothing to do with the child as she has said she has "divorced" him.

Birdsfoot: I think you will find on MN that there are certain biases. One of these is against 'the other woman', dads who walk away from their kids and the like. So many partnerships and marriages end in seperation and there seems to be a lot of anger and bitterness around. I just think you've caught it all!

PS. The legal part of MN is usually quite factual and none of the hysteria you get on other parts. Honestly don't understand all this vitriol.

Had it myself once so know what its like!

Birdsfoot as I don't know what country you live in I don't know the answer to your question. What I do know is that your DH has a 12yo child who needs help. By the looks of things, she isn't getting it from her mum, she isn't getting it from her sister and she isn't getting it from her dad and step mum. I would suggest your DH pays for her to get the help from where she needs it.

And she needs it. And as a child she deserves to get it and her parents have to get it for her. That is the job of a parent. If you can't help then you have to get it for her.

I have approached this parenting forum before about my dsd (happy now?).

8th Nov last year for eg:

"Does anyone have experience of respite foster care available in the UK, and how to get it?

My step daughter has had no contact with her father (my dh) since April this year. She has always been challenging, but since starting secondary school last year she's become more so.

Until April, she visited us every other weekend, and has at times lived with us full-time. She has however stopped seeing us altogether because of our strict (no, not really) rules on internet use, tv, playstation etc. She was, until she seperated herself from her dad, on an evenish keel (considering the additional mental health problems she's suuffered from since age 6), but has since spiralled downward.

Her mum can't cope and is saying she doesn't want to go on living. Sd refuses to attend school, has been arrested for shoplifting, drinks and smokes in the city centre at night and claims she has sexual relationships with much older girls. And advertises the whole lot on Formspring and facebook. She leaves home at anytime day or night, and when she's brought home by the police is cheeky to them.

We have been berated and excluded by her mother, but want to help if we can. Any advice on how this child's mother can take control would be much appreciated."

• - -

Since 2004 we have involved the appropriate bodies in my dsd's difficulties: GP, schools, CAMHS (3 referrals since she was six) and the police. We are denied contact now - how can we "Step up" etc when we're not even allowed/wanted?

Yes, she is only 12. She is a child. But, she lives with her mother, who would rather hide the truth than accept help. We can hardly storm in Tom Cruise-style screaming "WE'RE HERE TO DO THE RIGHT THING AND TAKE CARE OF YOU BECAUSE WE LOVE YOU DARLING!"

Dsd has endangered the lives of both my dsd1 and dd. Diagnosis via CAMHS is ongoing, but is difficult when dsd says "don't wanna go to that cun*ing place" and thus her mother signs her off.

Resolution, birdsfoot. I think the reason that there is so much judgement is because the OP contains some of the story, but not all of it (and there was quite clear judgement from you in your story, along with some phrasing that read to me and lots of others as at best crass and at worst, truly awful).

You could have avoided most of the judgement others made of you by posting the same question but avoiding all the backstory with a simple statement to the effect that there are long and complex reasons that you do not want to go into as they have no bearing on the question you wish to ask. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but if you're wondering why you got burned, that's why.

I also must comment that, bluntly, the advice you've had here is no kind of substitute for professional advice. You are faced with a very serious situation. You need advice from people to whom you have told the whole story. It might not affect the answer to that single question, but there are a whole host of related questions that you doubtless need to get into, where context will matter greatly.

By Resolution Tue 15-Feb-11 16:31:53
"Good, positive contribution from pancakeflipper. More of the same please."

Seriously? You do sound like the teacher tbh, very patronising. Everyone can post on this forum and people usually respond with honest opinions and reactions to whatever the OP has said.

Personally I'm always open to having my views changed. If the OP had given any indication whatsoever (in either her first posts or posts following the harsh initial response) that she and her husband felt going into care would be better for the girl, or had given any indication that her behaviour would be a genuine threat to other DC, my response would have been different, in fact I probably wouldn't have felt prompted to respond at all as I have no legal knowledge in this area.

However there was no indication of anything along those lines, even when the OP was faced with condemnation. And again, although I have no legal knowledge in this area, I would have thought to get legal advice about whether they could be 'forced' to 'house' a child, a feeling that either the child would be better off in care or that the child would present a danger to other DC would have been very pertinent. I think I and other posters were reasonable in assuming that wasn't the case.

Havent read the whole thread but as a mother of a twelve year old I would be fighting tooth and nail to get that child under my roof.

I am divorced too so understand about step parenting and I can safely say I would not be using any of the terminology you have used in your OP.

I find the phrasing of your posts very destructive to be honest.

That poor girl needs help and fast.

Otherwise your partner is going to be either attending her funeral as well as his ex wife, or he is going to be a grandfather by Christmas.

The local authority cannot force you to offer her a home. However they will endeavour to persuade you to do so.

If she, for whatever reason, lives elsewhere, the LA will be asking for a contribution, most likely through the CSA.

It might not necessarily be foster care. They will consider lots of options.

flowery: "Seriously? You do sound like the teacher tbh, very patronising."

As opposed to your judgmental posts you mean? Glad you're not a judge. You'd be hanging defendants after a 2 minute hearing.

"You'd be hanging defendants after a 2 minute hearing."

You are sounding ridiculous now.

I have been judgemental, yes - I haven't denied it. I have also explained why and explained that I am always happy to revise my opinions.

My point was that I don't (and I'm sure others don't) appreciate being lectured on how to post.

Sorry I upset you, but what I saw was the forum equivalent of a baying mob giving someone a good kicking. You were part of that. I think people have jumpd to conclusions without any evidence to back it up. I'm pleased that you're open to argument to the contrary, but the response by the multitude I thought distasteful. No parent will lightly abandon a child. The assumption by most that the OP is a heartless wicked step-mother is pure guesswork.

And what is your experience of cases where children are taken in to care? Sorry the question sounds arsey, but there you go.

i don't have any advice, but I want to defend the OP.

the way i read the OP, it sounded to me more that the DSD didn't want to live with them, and it was "forced" from the 12-yo's POV rather than the OP or her DH.

it's the DSD that doesn't want anything to do with her dad.

For the record, the vast majority of child care cases involve either abuse of drugs or alcohol, or mental health issues. Most of those parents fight against their children being taken in to care. To suggest that children in care have simply been abandoned is a rather Victorian viewpoint.

The father in this instance maintains contact with his eldest daughter. That does not suggest someone who wants to wash his hands of his children.

This is a legal part of the forum, for people looking for advice. There are other sections of the forum that would be more appropriate for the OP to have posted in had she wanted to turn herself into a target for the self-righteous.

You haven't answered the question. And judging from your posts, I have alot more experience than you.

You may call it obnoxious. I call it a measured response to some of the hysteria that has been whipped up.

A selection of comments posted in the space of 15 minutes after people started to notice this thread:

"If the worst came to the worst then hopefully someone else in the girl's extended family - someone with a damn sight more compassion and care than your DH is showing - would step forward and take her in."

"Gosh I wouldn't like to meet you in a dark alley at night. Probably wouldn't make it out alive."

"Do you have children with this sorry excuse for a man?"

"grow up. This girl needs help, either help her or tell your husband to grow a pair and step up to his responsibility of being a parent."

"She's twelve years old. YES he is legally responsible for her if her mother dies, and so he fucking should be. Otherwise, she will be deemed 'abandoned' and she will have been."

"So many heartless things about your post I am not sure where to begin"

And the fact that she hates her father doesn't count for anything? This forum has a large number of posts by parents sticking up for their 12 year old children who say they don't want anything to do with their father, for various reasons.

Yes, the child needs help. Some of the more responsible posts have helped there.

I don't think it's necessary for a poster to prostate themselves before us all and reveal their most intimate family secrets before they can ask a simple, straightforward question.

And you still haven't answered the question.It was this comment:
"And, yes, it isn't that uncommon for parents to effectively abandon their children. An afternoon at social services would make that perfectly evident"
that made me wonder whether you were speaking from a position of ignorance rather than knowledge.

I don't see how her father could live with himself if he abandoned his disturbed DD.

I don't see having his child live somewhere other than with him synonymous with him abandoning her.

Hopefully he can mend his relationship with her, but I think children can be incredibly stubborn, and once they get fixated with the notion that they hate somebody it is very difficult to persuade them otherwise.

From what the OP has since posted it is clear that he has been involved in trying to deal with her issues.

It is obvious the 12 year old DSDs mother and father and the OP heve tried a very long time, and failed to help this girl. Parents cannot always be blamed as some children do have serious mental health problems and need professional help. She has been in the system for some time and despite that her behaviour and mental health are deteriorating.

She needs taking into residential care unless a foster parent with experience of MH issues can be found. The OP clearly recognises she and her DH (from experience) cannot cope with this girl. If the DF has had to fight against the DSs mother all this time and seen the situation spiral out of control, it does need professionals now to step in and take that control. SS and CAMHS should be dealing with this better, and a better way for the OP and her DH to help the DD would be to push the authorities to help.

PS I thought this was an advice and support forum, not 'lets tear people to shreds if we dont agree with them' when they are at their most vulnerable!