Having a 3rd child and a career

[FolkSongSweet]

Does anyone have 3 (or more!) children with both parents working full time?

I’m a city lawyer and aiming for partnership in the next 3-5 years (I’m 7pqe and partnership takes longer in my practice area). My kids are 4 and 18 months (2.5 yr gap) and I’m 35. I want another child, ideally in a year or so to have another 2.5 year gap but I’m worried that I will totally screw myself over career wise, and even if I didn’t, it might not be possible to cope with 3 kids and such a full on job. DH also works full time in a stressful job but is self employed and at the moment tends to do 5 days a week but including a weekend day so that he can have the kids 1 day per week. We have a nanny the other 4 days. No family nearby.

Id love to “have it all” but wonder if it’s just not possible at this crunch point of career+fertility.

Op, I think I'm in a fairly similar position to you, although in a lower paid career; my DH is self employed and I work FT and am the main breadwinner. We have fairly recently had our third child and, so far, it was absolutely the right decision for us. Yes it's a new level of juggling and it is very tiring, but my older 2 DC absolutely adore their young sibling and I'm so glad we have the third addition. We have age gaps of around 3y with each and it's worked very well for us. We use nursery childcare, rather than having a nanny, because that's what our finances permit.

Some things that have helped us to manage, without a nanny:

•DH being self employed helps as he's flexible - however we also have to be aware of the fact that; if he doesn't work, he doesn't get paid!

•DH does drop off every day, and collects on 2 days

•I work FT but have adjusted my hours so that I can collect on 3 days - I start very early and finish early on these 3 days and then work long days on the other 2 to make up for it. On the days I collect DH works longer and won't always be home before the kids are in bed

•Currently I work from home on 3 days (the shorter days) but as things are going back to normal my manager wants this to reduce (I'm not happy about this as it makes logistics much easier when I'm closer to school, but I may just have to suck it up)

•Our eldest has cut down on activities/clubs since DC3 arrived

Some things to consider:

•We had to change our car in order to fit 3 car seats across the back

•We will probably need to move house at some point, currently we live on the outskirts of London and are considering moving to another part of the country where it's cheaper. This will be a hard choice, if we do it, as all our family and friends are around here. But we are unlikely to be able to afford a 4 bed here. The older DC are sharing a bedroom until we decide what to do, but we're all a bit crammed in and uncomfortable, space wise, currently.

•I had been hoping to work towards a PhD, when we decided to have DC3 part of my decision making included accepting that I may have to let this dream go. I'm not saying it's not possible, but I'm not devoting a lot of time and energy to trying to secure this which has freed up some of my mental capacity.

•Our shifted working patterns mean we both spend a lot of time parenting the DC on our own. This works for us because it allows us to have time with the DC, but it is tiring and we do both miss the others input at times. We work very well together as a team and have a very close relationship and I do miss that time with him, however I'm aware that this period of time is limited and, for us, we've decided it's worth it to have a close relationship with our children.

Overall it's been the right decision for us, and my eldest often comes up to me and says how pleased they are with their youngest sibling. "Thank you for having another baby mummy, I love them SO much" which makes all the hard bits so worthwhile. It's definitely not easy, but it's doable.

Thanks @BlackberryCake that’s really helpful. I know realistically that it’s not possible to “have it all”…in our current set up the thing that I sacrifice is “me time” and at the moment it’s a trade off I’m happy to make because I find my work enjoyable and fulfilling. I completely empathise with the split solo parenting though as DH and I do a lot of that too.

@TotallyAverage thank you too for your thoughtful reply. The difference I guess is that your DH has a “Big Job” that allows you to make those kind of choices. Im
the breadwinner in our family - I’m the one with the Big Job - and DH earns around half of what you do - so if I cut back at work it will have a big impact on our lives.

I don’t know what the right answer is really. It’s nice to believe that men and women shouldn’t have to conform to traditional
gender roles but the reality is that if I were to have DC3 my career would likely suffer even if I went back full time, and society would probably judge me for (as some responses on the thread have suggested) “outsourcing” their care to their own father.

I couldn’t have it all. Had to go part time.

It’s nice to believe that men and women shouldn’t have to conform to traditional
gender roles but the reality is that if I were to have DC3 my career would likely suffer even if I went back full time, and society would probably judge me for (as some responses on the thread have suggested) “outsourcing” their care to their own father

After more than a decade on MN I have realised people will judge you whatever you do, so do what is right for you and your family. It sounds trite but it's absolutely true.

It's funny, the main bone of contention between DH and I is the role of gender stereotypes and expectations on either sex. I pick up a lot of the grunt work and keep the household running, and my career - whilst it's great in many ways - has had to take a back seat to allow that to happen. Resentment can build on both sides who think they are the hard-done-by party. My eldest is nearly 7 now and it's taken all that time to negotiate with DH (and with myself too) so that I'm in a happy place.

A few men at my work are PT due to childcare commitments, and my brother was the main carer for his children for a good few years. It can be done. It is made harder by both biology (requiring the woman to be the one who gives birth and has to recover, breastfeed etc) but much more so by society.

It's hard having 3 but it's not as hard as I thought it would be. Everyone is different but I think in your heart you want a 3rd and that is difficult to ignore.

@folksweetsong I actually think you're right that you're the butt of some big double standards here and it is making me interrogate my own inbuilt assumptions. I guess I wouldn't want my husband doing the bulk of the childcare because I would feel like I was missing out on too much but if you're happy with that balance and he'd be happy to step back from his career for a bit then 3 would probably be workable?

I would say I have 4 with a similar age spread; last 2 were twins. There is always a risk of multiples or a child with additional needs. I think you have to consider the impact of that on your existing children.

I had a full time working mother with a responsible professional career and survived unscathed and work full time, so I am not suggesting that working parents disadvantage their children.

However, my job is also teaching in a private school where I think lots of families have the set up that some people are advocating/describing above (basically nanny who is part of the family and both parents working all.the.time. I really think this can affect them as older children and teenagers. Lots of our students don't really have much input from their parents in the week and they really need support from them in things like navigating friendships, homework etc. Often they are unhappy and their time poor parents want the school to solve it/throw money at counsellors when really what the children have probably always needed is their time.
It sounds like at the moment you are actually both around a lot for your children, whilst balancing your careers if the solution is just to outsource more parenting. The set up you have sounds really nice. I would be wary of jeopardising that. I have two and from a selfish perspective I also want to exercise and occasionally socialise and I think I'd be giving this up almost entirely if I had another one!

I have 3 kids and am a partner in a London firm. My situation is different to most because my 2 older kids were late teens, and my youngest 2, when I made partner. I had trained as a lawyer in my early 30s and was 44 at the time.

It is possible (I know lots of other female partners with kids, though not many with more than 2). But I'd echo what others say about the juggle getting harder as they get older. My 2 older kids had quite difficult teenage years. I wasn't a partner then and I don't think I could have given the job what it needed (or, for that reason, got it at all). When I was made up, they were on the cusp of university. Even now, it can be challenging. One of them has just dropped out of uni and come back home. You can't anticipate these things, and it's true that they need you more, emotionally, as they get older.

A friend of mine who is a partner at a very well known top 20 firm with an all equity partnership had her first baby when newly made-up. She asked about mat leave policy for partners and they said "no one has ever asked that. There isn't one". This was in 2018! She took 9 months and when she went back, fellow partners who'd taken over her cases were difficult about giving her clients back. So for her second child 2 years later she only took 4 months.

You don't HAVE to get partnership as quickly as possible. Plenty of women make a conscious choice to leave this until it suits them to put in the extra work.

Now that I'm a partner, I often think I'd have been much happier just sticking at Legal Director/Of Counsel level. Good pay, without the constant pressure to develop new business. In fact the only reason why I don't think about going back to this is worry that my CV would then look like I couldn't cut it as a partner and I'd never get back up if I wanted to.

I'd slow down the plan in your position. Have a third child and spend a few years doing well at work while having more time for family and building up your business case at your own pace. It's not a race to the top.

I'd add that I consider myself lucky as a partner to be "allowed" to work a 4 day week, 2 days in office and 2 from home. It's still difficult to get everything done AND do BD and manage events like youngest child's (frequent) sick days, and we do have very hands-on grandparents nearby.

OP, I'm browsing here as I'm in a pretty similar position to you - mid 30s solicitor with 5years PQE and two small children. I'm coming up to the end of my mat leave with number 2 and part of me is desperate for a third child, but I'm finding it hard to tell if that's just hormones talking.

I work for a firm that's known for its good culture and work-life balance, in an area that's relatively family friendly for city law as not purely transactional so not quite so many unexpected deadlines. There are two female partners in my team, both with kids. One was made up when she was working a 4-day week. They each only have two kids, and have nannies, and neither of their husbands are partners.

The only female lawyers I know with three kids aren't fee earning anymore. One is our team's knowledge lawyer, who is great and loves her job and I expect is still fairly well-paid, but those positions are really like hen's teeth. I know someone else who went into teaching for BPP which is family friendly but is a big pay cut. I also know someone who took a proper career break and published a book totally unrelated to law. She's tried to get back into fee earning recently, though, I think for the money and stability and tbh she seems to be struggling.

The third baby does seem tip the balance and I think for me it's a choice between going for partnership (hard enough with two kids), and going for the third baby and taking my foot off the career pedal. My plan is to give work as much as I can for 12/18 months - by which time I'll need to go for promotion to the next level of senior associate if I'm serious about partnership, and I'll also be at an age beyond which pregnancy might be more difficult - and try and decide then.

Having said that, what @1Wanda1 says is interesting. It does feel like a race to the top/up and out, though, especially when other lawyers at my level are men around 30 who aren't even thinking about kids yet.

Interesting thread. Mine are 11, 9 and 7 and I am chief exec and I am just about realizing that I have had enough of everything! Dc3 does have additional needs and life is really hard for all of us now, a lot because he is draining the energy from the rest of functioning life!

Work is a real solace though, I am not sure I could give it up!!

Still here and still reading! Thanks for replying @demotedreally. Do you work full time and what does your DH do?

I really enjoy my job but increasingly feel like I need a bit more balance somehow - just not sure how best to get it. Thoughts ranging from asking to go down to 4 days in current job/sticking it out for another 5 years to save cash then moving to the countryside/moving to a lower pressure full or part time role/etc etc etc.

And while I’m still very keen on dc3, as things get easier with Dc2 (2.5 now) DH is less and less keen on going backwards!

yes we had all 3 without stopping to think about it. No regrets though it has been hard recently. We are both senior in public sector - I have more flexibility than DH, as I am the boss, but I am just constantly moving from one place to another feeling vaguely stressed or very stressed..

I have three and I am a partner in prof services. I work four days a week. I don’t think I could cope with working five days a week as I need my day off to do admin/ have brain space etc

One is at high school, one in junior school and one in nursery. It’s a constant juggle and I’ve spent at least a hundred grand on childcare over the years. I resigned myself years ago to the fact that I’d forget things, never make a birthday cake, have an untidy house etc. I don’t think it’s possible to “have it all” (despite social media pictures making it look like you might)- but isn’t that just reality ? You might earn lots of money and have a fulfilling job, but home life might suffer - but equally, you may be a stay at home parent with loads of kids and loads of time for them, but you might miss work and that different sense of purpose … everyone is different. Having it all is a myth I think.

Equally I wouldn’t have it any other way and if I’d have been younger I would have even considered a 4th. Shocking - as home life can be hard and draining with 3 kids. Different challenges as they get older. Like @demotedreally said though - work is a solace. I feel lucky to be able to go to work- and I don’t even love my job that much !! (It’s ok- I’m happy enough :-). Home life sounds tough for you too. 💐 I have lots of empathy !

Start by identifying YOUR values OP.

Why do you want to make partner? The answer might be ‘I want it to feel fulfilled personally’ OR ‘I want to make tons of money’, ‘I want to help my clients’. Then keep asking ‘why’ to each of your answers and you’ll get to your values.

Your dominant value might be family, freedom, personal achievement, justice, status, etc. It's what drives you and you’re going to feel most fulfilled in life if you follow that.

I’m saying this because I think you mentioned wanting a 3rd child to 'opt out' more?

FWIW, we have 3 kids (now teens) and I gave up my corporate career to start my own business whilst youngest was a baby so that I can control my schedule and hours.

You’ll want to consider:

• Is your job going to be long hours? Only you know your energy levels...
• Is there lots of mental processing after work?
• Wraparound school care (e.g. 8-6pm, Monday to Friday) isn't ideal for kids and should be an emergency solution - even if it's the best school.
• You need 2 fully present adults around 3 kids. Get a nanny-housekeeper for 6 days a week who's in it for the long haul. Personally, I felt reassured when my kids sought out our nanny instead of immediately coming to me. I was happy for their good bond.
• Consider you might end up with 20 weeks holiday per year if you go private, THIS is the real career killer!
• You’ll need two adults on duty to take kids to after-school and weekend activities, even if your child is at a great school with lots of extracurriculars (especially if you’re in London, there's always something cool to do and we wanted our kids to have full lives)
• Work flexibly to be able to attend specific events, and be there for dinner, play, bedtime and weekends.
• Your kids’ bedtime might push back as they grow, get ready for it to be 9/9.30/10.30 as each child will probably want to chat about their day for half an hour.

Kg@CognitiveBehaviouralHypnotherapy how old were you when you had your youngest? I ask because I’m contemplating a 4th but I’ve just turned 40… so probably it’s a nuts idea! I’m full time.

I had my kids at 33, 35, 38. Madness! Best of luck to you

Thanks so much for sharing. Could you share a bit more about your experience and why it’s a recipe for disaster in your opinion. I think we don’t often hear from those who’ve grown up with a nanny and mostly hear about parents enlisting nannies to help out. Thank you

Hey we have 3 age 9,11,13 we had them all when we were 25-29 as easier when you have most energy

Now we earn £150k a piece and both wfh 4 days a week equal flex. DH in IT I'm a director at an inv bank

Advice:

• don't get a nanny. As others have said kids just want parents. Instead outsource grunt work we have cleaner 10h a week who does laundry as well

• take wfh over high status. Important thing is income, flex, continuing to progress. Working at a less known firm or not getting a certain grade is worth sacrifice

• move within 10m walk of primary secondary nursery & after school club. Prepare kids to be semi independent by yr5 if safe area. Hence one over 10 out and about themselves

• carve up the week. Each kid does 3 sports plus tuition. Eg DH does Monday eves, 2 ballet rounds with 3 lifts and 2 football for son. I do Tuesday gymnastics and food shop with son.

• hols are all inc and spa weekends where friends and fam have kids so can relax. We are 100% there for kids so do whatever is easiest

• private schools just status symbol and most aren't that much better. Extra stress for cost & keeping up with Joneses . Etc. Don't bother more relaxed state secondary you don't need the pressure

• we had wu pairs and out srouxed all sorts when all little eg cleaners looking after kids. Do whatever you can. Protect your career continuation, sex life and relationship!!

• were both around 80% for kids and they do want to chat, want their meals, we're always here. We are a very close family and kids all doing well. Eldest is late diagnosed autistic girl. Needs more management.

• I've properly burnout 3 times, DH been in hosp twice with chrons condition due to lack of sleep & stress.

Honestly think you're too old. We only get by because we started younger, are both at home almost FT, everything is on foot, and not high stress jobs at present.

If you push it in your situation, either your health will pack in or the kids will go off the rails. Sorry.

I’m so glad this thread is still going! Thanks for the recent contributions.

@CognitiveBehaviouralHypnotherapy youre totally right about needing to decide what I actually want. I’m a classic lawyer - type A overachiever but risk averse. I’m struggling to accept I guess that I can’t achieve what I want in both my home life and career and need to decide what has to give.

@FinanceMum weirdly age isn’t something that bothers me in terms of energy (luckily as I can’t turn back time!). In my circles (peer group friends and in my industry) I was young to have my kids at 31 and 33. Most of my uni friends had their first in the last year or two and will probably go on to have a second at around the time we might have no.3. For me it’s more relevant in the sense of obviously slightly higher risk of additional needs and not wanting too big an age gap.
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Ime, (3DC prof career) it's the partner that makes or breaks this.

If you're the one who will be expected to take every child sick day and go to every assembly just because you have a vagina then your career will suffer.

Since you know you're fertile I'd be tempted to push to get your partnership now then have DC3 once you have that.

Age gaps arent something to bring into the equation. There are pros and cons to small and big gaps. A small gap is definitely not something worth sacrificing your career over.

If DP will genuinely co parent (ie all the wife work of life admin/emotional Labour) then go for it and outsource outsource outsource.

Could you stretch to a housekeeper one you're a partner?

Then there's always boarding schools.

Thanks @Aphrathestorm - what is your set up re job/partner/ages of kids etc? (If you don’t mind sharing, I find it fascinating).

Ive just been promoted to Counsel and the way it works in my firm is that it’s a minimum 2 year track to partnership from
now, but could be 3. That does feel a bit long to wait for dc3 as I’d be 39+ when they’d be born.

Also cannot imagine ever wanting them to board (nothing against it in general just not for me). This is my issue really - I want to be present for them and do my job. 🤷🏼‍♀️

@FolkSongSweet I meant the age as in it's harder having older kids than younger in terms of the extra work required

DH and I finish at 630/7 from actual work but every single day one or both is juggling kids thinfs from 330-9/10 usually (play dates, football matches, gym, grade 5 ballet, tuition)

So the energy is I'm 39 now and this is tiring and I've burnout 3 times so far. But imagine doing this at age early 50s you'd be in menopause if a woman late 30s ag gym a lot finds it hard.

You haven't gone into this phase yet. Young kids is a doddle! Bed at 730. Do whatever play dates you do or don't do. Managing actual lives of older kids who are awake and wanting support until 930/10pm every day is much much more energy consuming

No way we could both work until 9/10 anymore. I'm not complaining as we both do small gym sessions (usually work hours or v late say 830pm) and we're both very hands on and totally in friend networks for each kid. But to be a proper parent this is the time it takes and the energy.

Yep @FinanceMum I get that. Do you think it would be materially easier with 2 rather than 3? I’m already going to be doing all that stuff into my late 40s as I can’t exactly reverse time for the kids I’ve already got, so the question really is how much of a difference being 3 years older/having one extra child is going to make?