Mumsnet is getting worse

[LondonMummer]

Seriously. Is it the same few people just name changing or is it really this toxic in the UK? There is so much poisonous Jewish hatred on here. I'm not talking hatred of Israel, just vile antisemitism on so many posts now.

I truly think I have to step away before I lose faith in humanity. Why does MN seem to attract so many hateful posters? Maybe it's the anonymity.

I can't keep calling it out. Im exhausted and actually deeply disturbed by it now.

Many of my Jewish friends who were anti-Zionist or ambivalent pre-October 7 have now changed their minds.

My own Israeli husband, who spent much of his youth there campaigning for Palestinian rights, and who refused to be drafted for army service, has spent many a sleepless night regretting his behaviour and decisions.

It has been such a perspective-shifter.

We're planning to make Aliyah in a couple of years. DH says this is a decision he would never have dreamed he would make when he left Israel in his late teens.

@PurpleChrayne yes - while there is a lot of discussion about how the Israeli attacks on Gaza will apparently turn more Palestinians towards Hamas, there's been little discussion of how 7th Oct has caused Jewish people of all degrees of Jewishness to really believe in the need for a Jewish homeland. I would now describe myself as a Zionist - 3 months ago I wouldn't have.

There is a thread in AIBU that will probably be moved to the Middle East section soon, but while it is in AIBU the tone is shockingly different to those in the ME section. It's the same with the one in Feminism. People are being much more reasonable and with a much broader range of opinions.

Oh it's not cringe at all, I've been going through similar feelings myself after a lifetime of not giving two shits about Israel and do now feel more of an emotional connection to Israelis. My heart's been breaking for the families of the hostages and also Israeli's in general. But it feels so complex and hard to unravel in my head. There's part of me watching the rise of antisemitism over here and thinking I'd like to just up and move there to get away from it. But at the same time, IMO Israel have gone way beyond self-defense and their response is fucking brutal and unforgiveable. So while I do feel more Zionist than before on some level, I don't feel particularly 'pro Israel'. Even though I firmly blame Hamas for this episode, I just feel anger at Israel and especially Netanyahu for walking straight into Hamas' trap and in turn putting Jews worldwide in more danger by awakening the antisemites. Israel is going to become even less safe after this sadly. No way I'd consider moving my DH and kids there, especially when they're not Jewish and it would be to satisfy my own needs not theirs. Why anyone would be willing to put their family in harms way is beyond me tbh.

Re Baddiel - I actually watched his documentary again a few weeks ago. He was just so bang on point in that and his book. I was definitely a fence-sitter too. I think those of us on the left have seen this coming for a while now, and although I feel quite shocked (and scared) at how blatant the indifference and hatred towards Jews has become, part of me isn't really surprised at all.

@noblegiraffe Is it the ceasefire one?

Yes, the one about the vote. I was reading it and was really surprised at how it was going till I scrolled up and saw it was AIBU and not ME.

And AIBU is y'know, famously an antagonistic section. It just made it blindingly clear that the other section isn't representative of normal people's opinions.

No way I'd consider moving my DH and kids there, especially when they're not Jewish

I don't quite understand this?

@noblegiraffe What I meant was, why would I move my family to one of the most dangerous countries in the world just because I feel a bit uncomfortable with antisemitism in this country. They're not Jewish, so it would be selfish on my part.

I could be asking a really stupid question, or a really personal question and I'm not sure which, so please forgive me on both counts, but your children aren't Jewish?

@noblegiraffe just browsed some of that. Makes interesting reading.... much more considered (with the odd.....?)

@noblegiraffe No, I've never practised and the cultural ties have never been that strong in terms of being part of a Jewish community per se, apart from through family, so I didn't feel the need to bring them up as Jewish. I know some would argue the Jewish mother thing and yes they ethnically are partly Jewish. And my DH didn't want to bring them up as Catholic either even though he does actually have more faith than I do.

@noblegiraffe There's also been a lot of 'marrying out' in my wider Jewish family too.

Someone sent me this article a few days ago that might interest some folk on here. It's by a (part?) Jewish woman who was an active anti-Zionist and participant in a far left group in America - in fact she was a fully blown Trotskyist - and the fog slowly lifted once the antisemitism became more obvious, especially once she moved to the UK and encountered the Corbyn mob. It's a few years old now but is really illustrative as to how difficult it's been for many decades now to negotiate a space on the left as a Jew.

"For the left, love for one’s comrades, party, the Soviet Union (once), or even socialism demands someone to hate — someone against whom hate (or a vaguer hostility) is sanctioned by those who have authority over us. Jews, often in the form of Zionists, are the hate-object that makes possible the leftist’s most transcendent love".

https://fathomjournal.org/antisemitism-and-the-left-a-memoir/

That's a really interesting article, Etmoi. What she is clearly describing is a cult, yet she never actually uses the word cult, I wonder why not?

There's an interesting series on Netflix called "How to become a cult leader". It's quite odd in the way it approaches the topic with animated segments and a kind of jolly tone, but each episode examines a different cult, how it started and developed, the characteristics of the leader and so on. It looks at the Moonies, Heaven's Gate, Charles Manson, the one that was responsible for the sarin nerve gas attacks on the Tokyo subway and others and what they all have in common. There's another related series which is "How to become a tyrant" about Stalin, Saddam Hussein, Gaddafi, the Kims in North Korea and so on where the parallels with the cult leaders are obvious. It's definitely worth a watch to get your head around this sort of thinking.

This bit from your article is the most obviously cultish

"Your world shrinks to a succession of meeting rooms in which your dear, witty, intelligent comrades periodically accuse each other — and sometimes, devastatingly, you — of capitulating to the bourgeoisie. You survive your victimisation, barely, and await vengeance by becoming one of the accusers. It is quite sick. Yet the beating heart of this toxic cycle is the most fervent and loving dedication to humanity found this side of sainthood."

We see this sort of purity spiral playing out all over the place on the left. The trans debate on the left is another area where speech is so heavily policed and free thought stamped on. Lots of feminists have found themselves cast out or brought to heel over that issue (has "bourgeoisie feminist" been replaced by "terf"?)

And "the most fervent and loving dedication to humanity found this side of sainthood" is exactly why people were claiming that Corbyn couldn't possibly be antisemitic. Even though he is clearly, antisemitism aside, a bit of a dick.

The author clearly still thinks that her comrades were lovingly dedicated to humanity rather than the idea of themselves being lovingly dedicated to humanity. That deprogramming may take a while yet.

@noblegiraffe The 'cult' thing is interesting. I don't actually think I've ever described the Corbyn movement as a cult, but I'm not sure why because so many of them do display cultish behaviour. I think maybe it's a term I've always found a bit simplistic and easy to throw around and perhaps more so in my mind I associate cults with Manson or more recently QAnon conspiracy theorists. But yes, what she is describing is most definitely a cult!

We see this sort of purity spiral playing out all over the place on the left. The trans debate on the left is another area where speech is so heavily policed and free thought stamped on. Lots of feminists have found themselves cast out or brought to heel over that issue (has "bourgeoisie feminist" been replaced by "terf"?)

Funnily enough I saw this on X last night and I thought, yes this is a fucking cult. It's all the accepted buzz words, no thought behind what she's actually saying and no flexibility. 'Queers for Palestine' makes no sense to me on any level - they wouldn't last there five minutes. She just comes across as someone that's been brainwashed.

https://twitter.com/JakeWSimons/status/1733633373413769294

My friend told me about that Netflix series so I'll give it a watch.

Is “smear tactics!!!” the new “hasbara!!!”?

@25milesfromhome More borrowed than new I'd say, straight from the Corbynista Dictionary. #itsasmear being a popular rallying cry.

I am also feeling more Jewish and more Zionist since Oct 7th. I’m ethnically 100% European Jewish and feel a great connection to my background. My parents rejected all the religious practises they felt had been imposed on them by their parents and grandparents, so we weren’t brought up keeping kosher, Shabbat, going to shul or celebrating any of the festivals. I have always lived in an area with the highest %age of the Jewish population in the city and feel culturally strongly Jewish. I’ve never felt a link or a bond with Israel.

Now though I feel protective and aware how vital a Jewish homeland is. For the first time in my life I’ve lit Hannukah candles. The Lubavitcher visited our neighbourhood on the first night, offering Menorahs, candles and a booklet about Hannukah with the brachas in, to anyone who wanted them. Somehow despite not believing in a higher power, or having any spirituality , it felt really important I did this in honour of my family who lost so much to protect their loved ones and their faith and , in solidarity with Jewish people everywhere at this desperate time.

I've never celebrated any Jewish festivals (neither did my Jewish dad as an adult) but this year I really wish I had bought a menorah. I'm aware this might sound crazy! Then again I have a nativity under my Christmas tree despite being an atheist so I suppose it's in much the same vein.

But I want my children to know about their ancestors (they never knew my dad, much less his parents) and be proud of their heritage. I also want them to know what terrible losses of close family members their grandparents endured (they are not little - old enough to understand). This must never be forgotten, even by future generations of my family.

Next year I think I will buy one and we will light the candles together. (Side note - of all my deceased relatives, I think my Catholic granny would have approved of this more that anyone else!)

I'm the same as many others on here. I was always the black sheep of the family ie more left leaning 🤪 The only one in my family who never bothered with spending a significant amount of time in Israel. Not religious and actually not really a fan of religion at all 🙈 But since 7th October I've felt the need to defend Israel's right to exist. I feel like that's what's at stake here. So while I don't agree with almost anything Netanyahu says and does in general, I support Israel more than ever before. It's so foreign to me because I'm being made to come across as though I hate Palestinians, and I just don't. But that's the narrative others have decided fits me. They struggle with understanding how someone can support Israel but not want there to be war. They struggle to understand that I'm pro-Israel but not anti-Palestinian. They don't realise that's how a lot of Israelis feel as well. They seem to need to think we don't care about Palestinians as otherwise they might have to consider it's not all black and white. That seems to be a difficult concept for them to grasp, presumably partly because they seem to think all Israelis and Jews are white and therefore lead privileged lives and obviously must be oppressors 🤦🏻‍♀️

@Humdingerydoo leaving aside the antisemites and bad faith actors for a moment, I think that what you describe in the second part of your post is the main problem with the Conflict in the ME board - an unwillingness to see the conflict as anything more complex than good vs evil. I think the press coverage, certainly in the UK, doesn't help.

I've been following Haaretz in English on twitter and they have published some really nuanced, balanced articles that acknowledge this complexity (I mean, they're in the thick of it so it makes sense - but it shouldn't be beyond our own press in the UK to do the same, in my opinion!)

On another note - I'm so grateful for this board. Solidarity to all of you xx

@0palfruity No it really isn't crazy! I'm also thinking about buying one next year to join our Christmas tree. That's so funny about your Catholic granny because I think my Catholic MIL would be delighted if I welcomed a little bit of God into my atheist soul, and if that has to come in the shape of a menorah then so be it😅I have a gorgeous little Magen David which was passed down through my mother's family and until a few weeks ago I kept it tucked away in a box but I've brought it out to keep with me in my purse again as a good luck charm. So maybe there's hope for me yet!

@Humdingerydoo My family have always been quite lefty anyway with very few links to Israel (basically, some have been on holiday there). So being the black sheep hasn't been an issue. But I read your posts with a lot of interest because much of the time I feel you're coming from a similar angle to myself.

But since 7th October I've felt the need to defend Israel's right to exist.
Yes, I'm not fully on board and don't see myself as either pro or anti Israel (in the context of the conflict), but I've definitely felt this too. Defending it's right to exist is not something I previously thought about much, nor did I think it would actually come to mean so much to me. It was always just a place that sat at the back of my mind, just in case one day...

But that's the narrative others have decided fits me. They struggle with understanding how someone can support Israel but not want there to be war.
I'm afraid there's a lot of folk need others to take an explicitly binary position on this issue so nuance (and facts) don't compute, which is reflected in the highly charged and entrenched 'debating'.

On another note - I'm so grateful for this board. Solidarity to all of you xx

Amen to this.

@etmoiandme haha - yes my granny wasn't really bothered which team you were on, as long as you made a bit of effort about it!

I’m not Jewish but just wanted to send support and solidarity. I’ve been appalled by what I have seen and heard in the past two months. My eyes are well and truly opened. I’ve joined the Campaign for Anti-Semitism as a result. I’m sure there are many others whose eyes have been opened too.