To ask if you've regretted surrogacy/struggled to bond?

[ivfregret]

Posting for traffic the other forums do not get much response.

This is not a thread about the ethics of surrogacy so I'm hoping it doesn't become that.

I'm posting because starting a family myself is becoming a very unlikely route for me and I may have to consider surrogacy.

I'm just concerned about bonding with the child/having regrets so I'd like to know if anyone has had this experience experience?

Thanks in advance

There is a very hyperbolic attitude in some quarters of MN on surrogacy (and on trans issues) where anything less than 100% opposition is seen as unacceptable. Purity spiral in action.

@Sissynova the uk maternal death rate is 4xhigher than in Norway and is getting worse. I don't think the uk is a safe place to give birth, especially given the increasing pressures on the NHS.

I Wonder if the anti surrogate brigade realise how alarmingly similar they sound to the anti abortion brigade.

@Sissynova
Private Eye had some helpful statistics about the costs to the NHS of harm occurring during pregnancy and childbirth. I think they speak for themselves when considering the risks of pregnancy and childbirth - whilst the greatest payouts go to babies damaged as a result of harm done in childbirth, each of those births will have been a very traumatic event for the mother you can be sure.

"The key contributor to claims arising from NHS trusts in England is the cost of maternity related claims which make up 62% by value and 12% by volume."

"Cumulative NHS liabilities for obstetric claims as of 2022 now stand at £41.5 billion of which £36.8 billion is for cerebral palsy or brain damage. Those babies who survive need medical care and social care and specialist equipment for life."

With women in the U.K. having surrogate babies against what any normal advice would be it's only a matter of time before surrogate babies born damaged start costing the NHS substantial amounts of money. Ria Pawlow for instance who had seven babies in eight years, gestational diabetes twice and a life threatening haemorrhage that required treatment in ICU. The WHO recommends a gap of two years between births to allow the mother to recover. Who thought it was a good idea to breed from this woman year after year like this?

(And don't tell me lots of women accidentally get pregnant soon after the birth of their first child - as a one off it probably won't be a problem. But most women take steps to ensure it doesn't keep happening for the next seven years.)

Take those men who think having twins is an optional extra. Aside of harm to the mother, multiple birth is frequently complicated by prematurity and this is the commonest cause of cerebral palsy.

Who will the men sue when they want a pay out for their damaged babies?

Link re: Ria Pawlow. Sorry. No share token but you can look in the Daily Mail if you prefer.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-love-giving-birth-this-is-my-seventh-surrogate-baby-xqfgzjwvz

Because surrogacy and abortion are entirely different things I'm not sure any perceived similarities in posts as compared by any one person is relevant.

Same with comparisons with organ donation to surrogacy. You can discuss them together and separately and have different views on both, or not.

If women want to incubate babies for others, I suppose that is their “right” just as it is a woman’s right to sell her body’s capacities in other ways, such as by prostitution.

It’s not the surrogate I find abhorrent. It’s the men and women who use surrogacy. They are little better than slave masters or users of prostituted women.

How so?

Are you saying women should be allowed to create babies for any purpose they see fit, because my body, my choice? The ethics should not be discussed at all?

Yes, some do. And I clearly have an issue with the lack of regulation in other countries. But, when clearly regulated, I think it's an amazing thing for a woman to do for another.

What does clearly regulated look like @justteanbiscuits, for you? Just interested in what limits you would apply if it was up to you (knowing what you know about the surrogate mothers in your life and how that compares to elsewhere).

How so? Most people who disapprove of trading of babies & using a woman's body as an incubator are pro-choice. Any time for any reason.

@justteanbiscuits what about the child?

I believe the child will grow up loved and nurtured in the vast vast majority of cases. Peer reviewed, long term studies rarely show any long term psychological damage to the child - and just using this site, the number of newborns which didn't get that skin to skin when born, who were instead with clinical staff etc, backs that up.

Studies show that continual disruption of the mother / baby attachment can lead to long term difficulties, but the key thing there is continual disruption. Maternal deprivation isn't what is happening here.

It's a really difficult question actually, and I'm not an expert.

Profit and pressure I guess. Someone must be completely free to make the decision as to whether to carry a baby for someone else. If someone is coerced, either emotionally or financially (or worse), is where I have issues ethically. But, I do also understand that for some women, the money they received could be incredibly life changing and who am I to take that away from them. So yeah, it's really difficult. I don't claim to have all the answers, but I am interested in the discussion about it.

Both the women I know felt very strongly about it, and both had counselling ahead of becoming a surrogate. One was in her late twenties and married with no children, and it was something she had always felt she wanted to do. She didn't want to have her own children till her 30's, and so wanted to do this while young and theoretically healthier. She now has three children of her own, the older two know and understand about the surrogate baby that was a born, and my friend receives photos a few times a year from the parents. The other was, like I said, for a close family member. My friend was a single mother to a pre-schooler, and wanted to do this for her family member, but has said it's not something she would do for a stranger. She wasn't asked to do it, but raised the option herself. The baby was also biologically hers.

Re abortion/pro choice being compared to surrogacy that’s a false comparison.

Arguments around abortion tend to be around ‘my body, my choice’ versus the babies ‘right to life’.

(Arguments around surrogacy concerning the woman’s rights are more similar to pro/anti-prostitution and commercialised organ donation.)

Arguments around surrogacy regarding the child, are more similar to child welfare arguments, which currently tend to put the welfare of the child first.

Once a decision is made to keep a baby and let it live, the woman’s ‘my body, my choice’ is no longer so simple. It involves another new person- her baby. It is now a mother’s ‘my choice, someone else’s life, health, wellbeing, entire future’. A mother’s choices can have a huge impact upon another human life and cannot be entirely self-centred anymore, unlike when she is considering abortion (from a pro-choice perspective). The ‘my body, my choice’ is no longer a meaningful argument once the baby is born.

Certain things are considered harmful for a child such as as the mother taking heroin or other harmful substances while pregnant, having a relationship with a child abuser or planning to sell her baby, or give it away, without going through formal adoption channels.

Surrogacy advocates must consider these child’s welfare arguments. It is not just a matter of ‘my body, my choice’.

My friend was a single mother to a pre-schooler, and wanted to do this for her family member, but has said it's not something she would do for a stranger. She wasn't asked to do it, but raised the option herself. The baby was also biologically hers.

Poor kid. Being given away by its mum. 😢

I'm interested in the discussion too, though I know where I have landed on it (you will see from my posting history).

I find it worrying that a woman who had not yet had her own children to begin and complete her family was able to engage in a surrogacy arrangement in the U.K. I know this isn't a requirement but I think it should be. There is no way she can give informed consent if she had not yet experienced pregnancy and birth. Women can have secondary infertility, the UK's youngest surrogate mother did (and she had a miscarriage) so she was lucky to be able to go on and have 3 children. Are they genetically related? It seems not but wondered how that factors in. Do her children see her firstborn in person or just photos? It seems to be an arms length relationship and not a close and enduring friendship if it's scant contact. Do they meet up at all?

Implications counselling isn't like therapy and is focused more on the likelihood of giving the child up as far as I can tell. It certainly isn't deeply exploratory to establish why a woman wants to do it. It's why I asked earlier what the motivations are. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. The woman who wanted to do this before she had children, is it possible that there was any underlying reasons as to why she thought of doing this in her twenties? Did her husband support her? US contracts for surrogacy can stipulate there is no sexual intercourse before or during. Some even have no kissing. I'm not suggesting that is the case with your friend but that is something that can put a strain on a marriage and I wonder what he made of it all. I also don't suggest that he could have prevented it, her body, her choice (but not the baby's choice.)

For the other woman, did she have a good obstetric assessment as with being a single mother to a preschooler she would I'm sure have considered the risk. Maybe the dad was around but they were not together? That must have been tough, especially at the end of her pregnancy. Did she make a will?

I appreciate you may not know the answers but I ask these questions in the spirit of discussion and these are the things I considered when reading.

Why on earth would you assume the op is exploiting a poor woman in another country? 🤔

I’m so sorry you are going through this op and there are some horribly insensitive posts on here. These sound very, VERY similar to anti abortion.

‘well some people have to accept that the child comes first’
‘a woman’s suffering isn’t as important as the fetus suffering’
‘killing a child that’s inconvenient shouldn’t be a right’
’it’s a life from conception, it’s attached to the mother from conception’

Woman 1: Had already donated eggs in her earlier twenties. Nice, middle class upbringing, private schooling, highly respected university and doing very well in her career. The surrogate baby wasn't genetically hers. She doesn't have the sort of "meet up" friendship with the family, and neither does she want one, but is more than happy if the child (now in their later teens) ever wanted to reach out to her. Her husband was 100% on board, and yes, during the IVF part, they weren't allowed to have penetrative intercourse - this was to solely prevent a pregnancy. They were allowed to do anything that wouldn't lead to a pregnancy though!!

Woman 2: Babies father not in the picture. She had full workup at the fertility they used for ICSI (using the family members husbands sperm). And she lived with her parents at the time who were her support. She lives just a few doors away from the family member now, and is a big part of their lives.

And I don't mean therapy. Counselling more along the lines of making sure they had a full understanding of what they were doing, what this could mean for them long term, and doing it for the right reasons (which probably had a component of therapy in it I am sure!).

None of that post is true.

‘well some people have to accept that the child comes first’

In the Children’s Act, the child’s welfare is paramount.

‘a woman’s suffering isn’t as important as the fetus suffering’

A baby which is born and grows into a child and later an adult is not a foetus.

‘killing a child that’s inconvenient shouldn’t be a right’

Do you think killing children is acceptable?

’it’s a life from conception, it’s attached to the mother from conception’

Again, we are talking about ongoing life, after birth and beyond, not just a zygote.

One was in her late twenties and married with no children, and it was something she had always felt she wanted to do. She didn't want to have her own children till her 30's, and so wanted to do this while young and theoretically healthier.

I find it shocking to let a woman embark on surrogacy who hasn't already had children of her own but who wants them in the future.

1. She cannot possibly give informed consent, understand how she may bond with the baby she is carrying, how her body will change.
2. How many threads have we seen on Mumsnet with women describing their terrible birth experiences and long term consequences, which for many mean they will never have another baby, either because they can't or because they definitely do not want to repeat the experience.

Imagine going through all that and giving up the baby at the end.
Obstetric anal sphincter injury anyone?

It's good woman 2 had support during and post birth I assume. She also had a next of kin if anything were to have happened. Women struggle with morning sickness even if it's not HG and with toddlers it's bloody hard work. Doing that for someone else must take some motivation. I imagine the money was helpful and she didn't charge for rent as she was living with her parents. Being a single mother the money must have helped. Do you now how much she was paid?

The husband of woman 1 did become a father when their children were born so he must also have considered the 4 babies she gave birth to differently. Her first child may want a closer relationship with her in time, or not, so that's something they will prepare for in their marriage. The child may not be genetically hers - though as an egg donor she may have other children related to the children she has with her husband, and they may have half brothers or sisters they can find later - but the child is biologically hers as she gave birth to him or her. This child is now a teenager you say so too young to start their own family, he or she may want to know more about what the pregnancy was like should she become pregnant, or if the baby was a boy, if he is a father later in life. It sounds as though woman 1 donated eggs before the surrogacy pregnancy so these children could be nearing the age they can find her on the donor register. I wonder how she feels, and how they feel about that.

As Woman 1 was an egg donor and a surrogate mother she has an idea about how her body can be used and is 'useful' for others. I do wonder where this comes from. I don't think it's just threads like this, social media or womens magazines. I think it's more than that. It's not an idea I would want my daughter to have, even as an adult. Womens bodies aren't a collection of useful body parts to share or offer up to others. Her DNA may be carried in eggs now in a daughter she half-created by donating her own eggs. Maybe this is something that comforts her or makes her proud. Personally, I don't think it sends a good message to girls, particularly in this new age of misogyny we are living in. It is not a woman's job to have a child for anyone else. Because it is only women who can do this, it is helpful to a worldwide billion-dollar industry that women do think like this and do want to be useful in this way.

Are any of the children of woman 1 she had with her husband girls?