Talk to me if you've decided to stop trying

[BipBippadotta]

Hello. I think I have to stop trying to have a baby or I will ruin the rest of my life. Can someone give me some advice or a handhold or something about how to do this?

I am currently waiting to miscarry for the 3rd time in under a year - this after the full-term stillbirth of my daughter 18 months ago due to a ruptured umbilical cord. I'm 39.

My life has ground to a halt. I don't want to keep tearing myself apart trying to have a baby, particularly as it becomes exponentially less and less likely to work out with every month that passes.

I do not want to use donor eggs / sperm. I don't want to adopt (obligatory explanation here: I don't think after so many traumatic losses my DH and I are robust enough to take on a child who's already had a very tough start in life, possibly with obligations to maintain contact with their family of origin. Nor could I bear trying to adopt internationally, waiting interminably, etc. I think any of these things, at the moment, could destroy our sanity and/or our marriage, and those are the only two things I have left at the moment).

Since my daughter's death I have been so focused on having another baby that I don't know how to turn things back around. I have grieved for my daughter - I have grieved like you wouldn't believe - but there has simply not been the time to sit back and come to terms with it all like everyone says you should do before trying again. Given my age, I had to try again immediately or give up the possibility of children forever - and that's a fucking hard thing to do when you've just buried your only child.

I don't know how to keep going. I can't take any pleasure in anything. I can't face seeing my friends, as I don't have anything to say for myself anymore that anyone wants to hear. The only thing that has been giving me any sort of forward momentum is trying to have a baby - and I have to make myself understand that it is not going to work.

How do you know when to stop? And when you know, how do you stop? Do I have to hit rock bottom, and have a complete nervous breakdown, before I know for certain I can't do this anymore? Is there a way to stop trying before you go mad? How do I claw my way back to something that feels like life?

I am so sorry to read about what everyone is going through, life is so shit sometimes. In answer to your question bip I was told by the consultant at my first clinic to give up, that they couldn't help me any more, to try surrogacy. To give up hope. But a bit like tolly I couldn't physically or emotionally give up, even though at the same time I was also sick of it all. I found a different clinic who were prepared to treat me and (I am not sure if this is helpful or not) they did find an underlying problem and eventually their new treatment worked. But I questioned what I was doing all the way through each and every one of those cycles. It's just so difficult to know, and annoyingly no right/wrong answer xxx

My IVF doctor pretty much told me to stop. Happily that coincided pretty much with me deciding I couldn't take it any more. I felt my life had been on hold for 8 years.

And we grieved and then healed. And then we decided what to do. (For us it turned out to be adoption, we could just as easily have jacked in our jobs and gone to do something that only people without children can do.)

But you are still so very much in the thick of it right now. Why not decide not to decide anything for 3 or 6 months?

(FTR we didn't have a miracle baby as soon as we stopped trying or after we adopted...)

Bip I kept telling myself if I tried enough times then statistically one pregnancy had to work out. Because I already had my daughter I knew I was capable of it. If anything the losses made me more desperate. Also, every doctor I saw (and I saw many, at great financial cost) told me the losses were unconnected, i had just been unlucky. Eventually, after loss 4, for which I had a d and c at a private hospital, the consultant there gave me clomid. I think it was because he felt sorry for me but also because he told me I might get a stronger egg (nb-pretty sure this is bollocks but I wasn't going to argue) I took it, very much against husbands wishes as he was so worried about my mental state and did actually get pregnant. I'm now 17 weeks, so same gestation as some of my losses. It's been a total head fuck but I'm getting amazing care from uch. The seems ok so far- am under the pre term birth clinic and they just rang to say they've detected infection so in my way now to get anti biotics- but seems relatively hopeful so far. It feels very removed from having an actual baby so one day at a time. Strangely, I've actually felt more depressed during this pregnancy than I did with any of the losses. I think my burning hunger to get pregnant helped me keep it together a bit and now I'm not focus sing in that I've got more time to reflect and feel depressed.
it's knowing when to stop. If this pregnancy doesn't work out, that's it for me. I plan to go on depo provera so I can't keep trying. I've wasted enough of my marriage, my money and my sanity, as well as my daughters childhood chasing this and it needs to stop. Best wishes to everyone X

Tolly I completely get what you mean about the desperation to get pregnant helping you keep it together. Some sense of forward momentum keeps you going. I can also understand the depression in your current pregnancy. I wish you all the best of luck that everything goes smoothly and gets a bit easier emotionally once you're past the point at which you lost your previous pregnancies.

Interesting point you make also about the possibility of going on depo provera so that you can't try. I was thinking about this the other day - but it made me feel panicky. That desperation again. And yet the last thing I want is to be not 'trying' but still trying.

Gibbous Glad your consultant was able to say that to you - and to judge his timing so that it didn't come as a terrible blow when you were not ready to give up.You're right, I should prob coast for a couple of months without making a definitive decision. That is the hardest thing in the world for me though - I cannot bear uncertainty, which is one reason why this has all been so tough.

Dannygirl I'm so pleased you found a clinic that could help you and that it's worked. It's all such a crap shoot, isn't it? That's one of the hardest things - you have no idea whether there might be something just around the corner that could fix whatever problem it is you have... how long do you keep looking?

Icy missed your post there - thanks so much. Whatever point you're at with infertility / loss it can be fucking shit in such a dazzling variety of different ways!

The thing is bip you're so right there probably always will be something just around the corner that maybe, just maybe, might work. That's kind of what I mean about the hope being the worst part

I had already found a clinic in the US who specialised in (what I thought was) my particular issue and was prepared to go over there for treatment which actually would have been a terrible decision for many reasons

If you stop trying of course you will never know 100% for sure whether it could have been possible (and you probably have to decide if you can come to accept that) but at least you are taking the decision into your own hands and moving forward. I am so sorry you're in this position especially after your losses and I genuinely wish you all the very best whatever you decide xx

Personally, I think that 'not trying' has to equal long-acting contraception or vasectomy, otherwise that little thought is always going to be there in the back of my mind, every single bloody month.

Also, life plays tricks on you to reawaken the feelings too. Last summer I saw a woman who must have been 45 if she was a day, walking down my high street with a seven month bump - I almost wanted to stop and publicly applaud her! But is it a coincidence that a month or so later I found myself looking at the clinic website again....?

The other thing I considered doing was messaging Dr Robert Winston via his site. I know that he is another doctor, after all, but maybe to get his opinion on whether to continue trying or not might feel more 'definitive' in my mind?

Evening all, hope you don't mind me adding my two pennorth in case it's of help or use to anyone.

We found out 12 years ago that we would never have our own biological child. Not one created from the two of us. I know this might sound crazy but in fact this made life easier, because we didn't have to wrestle with any of the IVF-related treatments, effects or dynamics. We just stepped off the treadmill and said 'no, not for us'. I'm not knocking those who opt for donor involvement or fostering/adoption, BTW, but they just weren't for us (we'd had long talks about this when we first realised things weren't going to be straightforward). So we weren't childless by choice, but in effect we were IYSWIM.

It's a different life from the one I thought we'd have, but tbh, it's probably a lot free-er. We've had the freedom to do what we want when we wanted it, such as taking risks with moving house and jobs that we would never have done if we'd had children. Over 50% of our friends are childless, which may or may not be a coincidence(!) but we don't feel alone in the way I imagine you might do if you're the only couple in your social group without. And life is more financially comfortable without children than with them. Sex is also a lot more fun when you're not doing it for a reason and it took the pressure off when it was just 'for us' instead of to a timetable.

We had all the 'just relax and you'll be fine' plus miracle stories of the people who had a baby at ridiculously advanced ages after years of trying. I come from an Irish Catholic background where if you don't have at least 4 kids you're not even trying so lots of people had lots of 'helpful advice' to add. I perfected the art of smiling sweetly while silently telling them to p!ss off. And my last row was with someone who posted a link on Fbk to the Red article about 'feel sorry for non-mothers on Mothers' Day' and couldn't understand why it was quite patronising to be pitied in that way. But I suppose I want to reassure you that there is life after infertility and it's not a bad one, tbh. You just don't hear so much about it because of the 'all women must be mothers or there's something wrong with them' dynamic we have in our society.

I think you'll know if/when it's not for you any more, but it might be worth taking a break for a bit and re-evaluating how you feel later in the year. And sympathies to you and others for your losses.

Thanks, Pina. Glad to hear your story. I'm lucky in that I don't get a lot of the 'all women must be mothers' thing from people around me (except in a sort of subliminal, environmental sense - I don't think I've ever seen another woman walking pramless in my neighbourhood). I get a lot of 'think of all the wonderful things you can do without children!' - most often from people who do have children. It's meant to be uplifting and encouraging, but doesn't take grief into account. Also it makes me feel guilty for not making the most of the freedom I have, with a spectacular career or writing a novel or running marathons. Alas I'm not yet at the point where my freedom feels anything but oppressive.

I suppose what I wonder is - how do I get to a point where anything feels like a positive choice? Forking over tons more money for treatments that are unlikely to work doesn't feel 'positive', it feels delusional. Stopping trying doesn't feel like an empowering embrace of new possibilities, it feels like giving up on something very dear to me because I'm broken and can't do it anymore. Moan moan moan.

Maybe I know what you mean re: stopping needing to involve permanent contraception. But much as I hate the hope every month, I also can't yet bring myself to take the nuclear option. I guess that means I've got a while to go before I hit rock bottom. Re: others' bumps keeping the hope alive - at my clinic there was often a pregnant woman in the waiting room who looked about 50. I used to think she was an actress from an extras agency, paid to wear a prosthetic bump to attract more business.

Robert Winston might be an idea. I do like it that he thinks supplements are snake oil. It was a huge step forward for me when I stopped necking 18 different supposed fertility-boosting super supplements every morning & washing them down with a fucking wheatgreass smoothie. Like that was somehow going to erase 39 years of time and age and whatever else it is that rots eggs. My next step is throwing away the bbt thermometer. It will take longer to give up OPKs. The urge to piss on sticks remains strong.

Time, Bip, tbh. It's a cliche but it's true. Btw, I've never written a novel, run a marathon or done anything particularly spectacular just because I don't have children, so flick those people the virtual v signs and ignore them. For me it's about having my time to call my own, so getting out of bed later, staying up later, not having to think about a babysitter if we go to a film or for a meal, going on holidays out of term time, that sort of thing. That's the freedom I like. Today I'll probably potter in the garden for a bit with our dog then lie around reading all afternoon, for example. I doubt I'd be doing that if I had kids.

The only thing I did do as a specific thing was to decide in my own head that this was not going to define me for the rest of my life. As I said, for us the position was more black and white, for which I'm grateful (now. I bluddy wasn't then!) So I know this will sound Pollyanna-ish, but I decided I had a lot to be grateful for (lovely DH, interesting job, good friends & family) so would find at least one thing per day which had been good and nothing to do with TTC. And over time, the number of non-TTC good things got bigger, and the focus on the not-having lessened.

I don't think you're moaning, either. You've had a hell of a time and it's one of the toughest (if not the toughest) things to go through. The year we found out, we'd not long been married. FIL died suddenly at the start of the year, then we found out we wouldn't have children, then later DH got diagnosed with a chronic health condition. I do remember looking up at the sky at one point and saying 'yeah, ok God, enough with the testing of the for better for worse vows, ok?' So if stopping trying feels like giving up on something v dear, then it's not the thing for you to do at this point. You'll know when it is.

God, you had some awful times, Pina - all the shit does tend to come at once, doesn't it. I hope your DH is doing all right & his condition is manageable, and I'm sorry you had to go through all that.

You have reminded me that the crucial first stage of our post-fertility plan is to move somewhere that will enable us to have a dog.

In the meantime I've got a follow up meeting with my fertility clinic in a couple of weeks - hoping it will provide some sense of closure. I feel fairly certain that I am done with treatments though the habit of trying the old fashioned way will take longer to die I think.

Oh, Lordy, Bip, I didn't mean to come across as trying to be competitive about shit times, IYSWIM. It was more to empathise with where you are at present and to reassure you that you weren't moaning! [And DH is fine, thank you, and you wouldn't have a clue to look at him that he has anything wrong with him at all.]

If you are thinking about a post-fertility plan, then that is quite positive from where I'm sitting, even though it may not seem so to you atm. Ditto stopping treatments but not using any contraception. I confess that even now, all these years later, when the logical part of my brain knows that 100% I won't be conceiving, there's still some part of me that wonders if it might just happen not unless I'm the bluddy Virgin Mary but hey The trick is not to let that 'what if' become the main focus of every month. Best of luck at the clinic appointment, and be kind to yourself, whatever you decide

PS just to note we don't call ourselves Mummy and Daddy to the dog as some sort of displacement activity. Because he's a dog

You didn't at all come across as competitive! I don't mean this in a ghoulish way but I do find it helpful to hear about the difficulties others have had, and be reminded that loss and disappointment and pain are part and parcel of normal life - something it's easy to lose sight of in a culture where it seems so important to portray yourself as chirpy & invulnerable all the time.

Hey bip. I've thought quite a bit before posting cos I know how annoying it is when someone who doesn't really get it wades in. I'll try not to say anything stupid!

I had a couple of reflections after reading the thread so far. The first being how much you've been through. It's such a a lot to deal with, even without the pressure of the tick tick tick of your fertile years in the background. You are so incredibly strong (even if you don't feel it - to still be facing into this and dealing with it purposefully after everything you've been throguh is amazing).

A few thoughts I had. One was that I was reminded of conversations I had with DH before we started IVF about how mnay rounds, when would we know how many to do or when to stop. It lead us to talk about why we wanted children. I'm fairly sure most people who have kids don't really go to the level of analysis us infertiles do about whether, how much and why they want kids. They do it because "they always wanted a family", "it's the right time", "all of my friends are". I wonder how many people really consider that they might NOT want kids, it might not be right for them, or what other options they had and what life might be like.

We also talked about how IVF is like gambling. There's a risk that you get drawn into keeping going because of how much you've invested so far (I need to win your money back! It must be my turn to get lucky next!) rather than heed the odds of success. In not wanting to feel a past investment has been a waste, a gambler keeps going - but he might just keep losing, and lose more in the long run. Sometimes it's better to cut your losses.

Secondly I thought about the language. The use of "trying", "failing" and "giving up". I have felt quite uplifted to read posters above use the phrases "moving on" and "accepting". I don't think it is just semantics, I think it is important not to see ourselves as "quitting" something. It's learning, adapting, deciding, accepting, moving on.

Finally I thought about some of the ways you have (very eloquently) described your feelings about staying where you are or moving to the new reality. Although I haven't been where you are, my reflection on complex decisions I have made is that you have a greater emotional attachment to the present state, and the present state is most likely better defined. So even if you are really unhappy, you can be more drawn to the present state. That's one reason it takes time to come around to the idea of change. But as you think more about the possible other situation, you define it more and you can can have more emotional attachment to it, so over time it feels easier to move there.

I don't mean any of this as advice, just my reflections on reading the thread. Ignore it if it's irritating waffle!

You and you DH have so much on your plates, to you both.

Hi Potatoes - thanks so much for your thoughts - not irritating waffle at all! DH and I often thought about the gambling thing - and we so do not have the gambling temperament. We felt like total mugs doing IVF the first time. The house always wins, and we have terrible odds to begin with.

Yes, there's no logical reason why anyone should want children. I think whether and how and why you want children is very fluid and probably changes a lot with circumstances. We were ambivalent & a bit frightened going into ttc, then surprised ourselves by how joyful we were during my pregnancy. We realised we did want children, we would be good parents. Then we lost her, and then all the miscarriages happened. Now, even if I did have another full term pregnancy, I would not be able to be happy like I was with my daughter. I would be wondering all the time whether it was a good idea to put us through all this again. At the place where our daughter is buried, there are the graves of a brother and a sister, stillborn within 18 months of each other. Lightning can strike twice (or more).

It's impossible to work out rationally whether I want a living child more than I don't want another death. Partially because I can't imagine having a living child. I can't envision a scenario in which I am handed my newborn and feel straightforward joy rather than a mixture of relief and terror and sorrow. But it's also hard to think about not having children when I can remember how happy I was when I was expecting my daughter, and how excited I was when I went into labour. I spent 9 months preparing for my life to change forever, and the trouble is adjusting to the fact that it didn't - at least in the way I thought it would. I was back exactly where I was before I got pregnant, but completely broken. What you say about the current reality versus the new reality is interesting in that I'm so fucking sick of the current reality - I would welcome pretty much any reality but this holding pattern, being stuck forever in a life that doesn't change.

I think one of the things having children does is it forces change on you. When you don't have children, you are personally responsible for any change to your life and circumstances (apart from the inevitable changes of advancing decrepitude, redundancy, other forms of loss you can't control, etc). You have to make decisions about every single way in which your life might stop being exactly how it's always been, and about every perspective from which you might try to see the world. And I think that's what feels exhausting to me at the moment. The freedom and the responsibility of deciding everything for myself and never being nudged into new situations by circumstance or obligation. I don't really have the energy for it just now.

I spent yesterday looking at Meetup groups, and thought, Jesus, is this my life now? Do I really have to force myself to try to be interested in life drawing, or take up rock climbing, or do conversational French class just to take the edge off the loneliness and fill my hours and feel like I'm doing something constructive? The task of moving on and changing my life feels like going through a hideous sober middle-aged version of Fresher's Week. But I guess that's just what it will be like for a bit.

Yes I'm re reading your posts and it is different. You've been there. If I was to "stop" I'd be giving up a hypothetical family. But you held your daughter. I think that makes it a fundamentally different decision. And a lot harder. People say it's better to have loved and lost etc but I do think it would be easier for me to "give up" on the dream of a family when I've not actually tasted it than for you having had that experience.

It probably is true that is more wonderful or fulfilling our whatever to have kids than not, but it's easier to walk away from it from you've never held your baby, if you see what I mean.

Not sure that helps you in any way.

How are you getting on?. Are you still mulling on this or taking a break for a bit?

I think life is busier and more interpersonally full having children than not - whether that feels wonderful and fulfilling all the time to those who are living it is another question. I think a lot about a bit in the book Notes on a Scandal, where an older, single, childless remarks to her younger, married colleague with children about how nice it must be to have a family. The younger one says something like, 'having a family doesn't imbue my life with any great meaning of fulfilment, it just means I have more to do and more people around'. The older colleague thinks to herself that having more to do and more people around is meaningful, or at least the sort of meaning she would welcome. It's a really interesting book about different types of loneliness. Must go back and look at it again.

I'm doing all right - it is freeing not to be charting my BBT for the first time since 2011, not knowing when I ovulated or what cycle day I'm on. It does feel like turning my face to the wall though.

On a lighter note I joined an aerobics class the other day - it was amazing! Great music, lovely teacher, I got an excellent workout but could follow all the moves, which never happens. I felt great about myself and was pretty excited to make this a regular thing. Then the teacher came up to me at the end of the class and said, 'I just wondered if you were aware that this class is aimed at the over 50s...' I hadn't even noticed; with all the fertility stuff I've become so accustomed to thinking of myself as old and knackered that I felt right at home among this group of sprightly pensioners (who could all lift heavier weights than me...). But it made me think it will be nice to regain a sense of myself in some context other than fertility. 39 may be old to be a mother, but in other areas I'm still firmly in my prime. There's life in the old dog yet!

Hiya bip, at the aerobics class. Yes, you are definitely still in your prime! Just popping in to let you know I’m still lurking here, reading all the posts and advice and cheering you on. My natural cycle went tits up 3 weeks ago, with another failed fertilisation. So I’m now one step further along this journey. I’ve one more round left to go, and then it’s decision time for me. I’m actually dreading starting my next round of treatment as I’m recognising more and more that this would bring me closer to the end of my journey. After that, against my better judgement, it’s a choice between more own egg treatment (IVF – most likely natural cycle, or possibly even IUI), and taking some time off to try to live my life a little without the ttc obsession before figuring out when/if I’m ready to move to donor egg and to work out if I’m brave enough to walk away altogether. I watched at the weekend that expressed all this very well, and I thought I would share.

potatoes I’m sorry for your loss , if you do fancy popping back into the berries anytime, you would be very welcome.

Hey Sesame - so sorry to hear about your cycle. I know the feeling of dreading the next round of treatment. It gets to the point where there's only so much more disappointment you can take. Do you have a date set for the next round? How are you feeling about it?

Hi Bip, your story has sent me to tears. No one should go through what you have to go through. All of use suffering with the struggle to conceive can at least lend a hand.

I still get bitter when I see bad parenting, or women who get pregnant on a one-night stand. It's just not fair.

I read the first page of this thread but none since so I'm not sure if this has already been suggested but have you considered a surrogate? You can still use your own egg and DH's sperm but someone young and not prone to miscarry can carry the baby to full term?

The law in the UK is iffy as a surrogate can decide she doesn't want to give the baby up when she has had it, but the US have very strict laws that protect the rightful parents. However, in the US it is very expensive. I don't know your financial situation but something to look in to? I also hear India has a burgeoning surrogate market for Westerners (and much cheaper than US).

at over 50s aerobics! I would've told her I was 50 and taken the ensuing compliments!

sash on a sensitive thread like this I would suggest reading past page one if you intend to post.

Bip I’m looking at starting on my next af, so beginning of May. Wish I could just keep putting it off though, as I would much rather stay where I am now – the in between stage, where there is still hope prior to inevitable failure.

I know you’ve heard all the suggestions have done their rounds on this thread and others so tell me to piss off if you want, but did you ever have an hsg and hysteroscopy? That’s what I picked up from reading the Robert Winston blog as poss worthwhile for secondary infertility investigations – given I think your mc’s happened after you had your daughter.

Good luck for your next cycle, Sesame. That's the awful thing, isn't it, that you can't put it off, however much you want or need to for the sake of your sanity, as every cycle counts with egg quality once you reach our vintage. Ugh. I found recently that the bit after a miscarriage was the happiest I'd been in a while - because there's absolutely fuck-all to be done about ttc until the next period. For a couple of weeks it's like being a normal person!. Hang in there. I hope you have some nice things planned before May, to enjoy your little oasis of in-betweenness.

Yep, had a hysteroscopy before IVF. All clear as a bell (was also told my uterus was 'spacious' - which sounded like obstetric slang for being a bit of a bucket ). Tubes clear. I've got good AMH and FSH. Loads of eggs left. No clotting or thyroid or autoimmune issues, no PCOS. Karyotypes revealed we're both genetically normal. That's the frustrating thing really - nothing at all has been revealed in any of the extensive investigations we've had apart from DH's shit morphology & my age.

The miscarriages were all caused by chromosomal abnormalities, so the problem's squarely with our gametes. I was 37 when I had my daughter, and she was genetically perfect. She died because she got tangled up in her umbilical cord during labour, not because of any underlying health issue in her or in me. It's hard to fathom, but the reason she died is actually nothing to do with why I keep having miscarriages. I've just had two unrelated forms of outlandishly bad luck. Don't know why I mention this really - except she must have come from my last healthy egg, and a rogue normal sperm, and in a month where we only had sex once, 5 days before ovulation. It's a near statistical impossibility that she was conceived - and a near statistical impossibility that she died the way she did (full term stillbirths due to cord accidents happen in about .0014% of pregnancies). Ugh. We are extreme fertility outliers. This is what I keep going back to when I'm tempted to try again. What the fuck awful new disaster would we be in for next time? And could we cope?

Potatoes damnit, I totally missed a trick there - I should tell them I am actually 75, but only pretended to be younger last time because I didn't want to admit to all the facelifts. That way I could stay in my lovely gently class and not have to go to Bhangra Aerobics with shouty instructor where I invariably trip over my feet and look like a tit.

Thanks bip, I’m liking the little oasis on in-betweeness! I hate all this shit about ending up on the wrong side of statistics. My friend had a full molar pg aged 42, ttc no.1, one year after her first pg loss, and then told unable to ttc for at least 6 months. 1 in 600 chance of this happening, but made so much worse when the prospects of conceiving again disappear so quickly. Nobody deserves this shit. I only mentioned the HSG (rather than other kinds of tubal patency tests) as that’s the one RW keeps going on and on about on his blog as the test to look for uterine problems that might otherwise not show up on any other investigation. I would just go back to over 50s aerobics, they oughtn’t be allowed to discriminate anyway, and I can really see the attraction of exercise without the pressure to have to keep up. I reckon if it were me I’d definitely qualify based on egg age …

God bip the statistics around conceiving and then tragically losing your daughter are incredible and heartbreaking. If the reasons for miscarriage are chromosomal have you considered or tried pre genetic testing (I think that's the name) along with IVF. That's if you decide to continue trying. Someone mentioned it to me several years ago after issues in my first pregnancy, I believe there is a clinic in London who do it. Am on the move at the mo but will look further into it once I get home. Thinking about the title of your thread I am not sure you're looking for new treatments/options, sorry if that's insensitive xxx

And best of luck sesame for your next cycle x