Anyone starting IVF soon? Join me (2)

[purplemeggie]

I see we've filled up the thread and thought I'd better start another one. How's everyone doing?

Yes, it's very frustrating Sunrise. I too noticed that even within that one website, there was conflicting information - even though it is all based on research. Another contradictory one on there was avoid high protein as it causes build up of amonia in fluid surrounding egg, versus study shows high protein low carb diet before and during IVF produces higher number of surviving embryos. And I am vegetarian so I prefer soy protein, but as you point out, there is contradictory info on there about that too. Out of curiosity, are you doing any particular diet?

Lovely to hear from you Annie. Not sure if you've read back but we've just been discussing Aspirin on here too - and the frustratingly inconclusive research on this.. and on everything! Can I ask when you took Aspirin for your fresh cycle? Was it before and during IVF, or only after the EC in preparation for the transfer? Just curious as I have read that it interferes with follicle growth but that didn't seem to be an issue for you with 8 eggs being collected.

Okay, I am starting a list of question to ask my Dr for appt on 30th Jan in prep for IVF 10!! There's always questions I wish I had of asked after the appt so I am trying to prepare in advanced this time. If you guys think of any based on my history, help me out. So far I only have one question:

• Taking estrogen along with Progesterone in luteal phase. Some clinics do this as standard. Mine doesn't. Some research shows increased IVF success, other studies don't! Any harm to try since I had 2 top quality embryos but BFN.

Hi Annie good to to see you again! It seems like we're all wondering about the same things. When are you starting your FET?

Shellster you asked a question about my cycles. I had my last AF on 28 Dec, after I got my BFP. I'm waiting for my Jan AF, then I'll start the next IVF round after my Feb AF around 21 Feb. Confusing? Maybe. Anyway I'll take aspirin now and stop mid Feb. Let's see if it makes any difference.

Please do ask the estrogen question Shellster, I've also been wondering about that. My clinic doesn't prescribe estrogen, but I've read about plenty of other women taking it. I have no idea what my estrogen levels are/were ....I wonder if my doctor does?!

And finally Sunrise I think you got it in one....no point in worrying about the minutiae of everything you are doing/not doing. I've shared this link before, I think it's great - Prof Robert Winston provides lots of no-nonsense advice. He is my celebrity IVF crush

I was just asking about your cycles blue because your Dr said to wait one cycle between IVF cycles. But you are actually waiting two cycles, so I was curious if there was a reason why when I know you wanted to get started ASAP. I know the Aspirin took two cycles to take effect for me, but no harm to start it now and see. After all, when you went to start IVF last time you only had 3 antrals so postponed for an extra cycle, so the same thing could happen again and you could resume the Aspirin for an extra cycle so it will end up being two cycles anyway.

I will report back to you with my Dr's advice re estrogen after EC. I have read that when they collect the eggs, they also take some of the surrounding cells that produce estrogen and that's why some clinics give it as standard. But I notice women on here and elsewhere do successful IVF without it so who knows.

Anything else you are curious about to know the answer that has popped into your head since your appt? I am happy to ask as they are probably things I am curious about too since we are both in the same boat with repeated failure.

Anyone heard from Purple???? Hopefully she's okay and just busy with her renovations and story writing.

Estrogen and aspirin were the two things on my question list so we're definitely on the same wavelength Shellster!

I guess it is a two cycle break but my doctor doesn't really consider the December AF a 'real' AF, particularly as I had another chem pregnancy. I guess this way I'm giving my body a chance to get back to normal. The only thing that worries me slightly is that I've got lots of work travel planned post-transfer. All relatively short haul trips but ideally I'd prefer to stay here. Not much I can do about it other than hand my notice in (!) so I'll just have to think positive. I'll be on Clexane again and the doctor reassures me I'll be fine.

I think Purple's appointment is at the end of January. She is going to be my donor egg advisor (hopefully!!).

Hey ladies....been away for so long that this thread had dropped off my "I'm on" list....not sure that's ever happened before!
Not much to say from my end....just that we're off to Prague on Tuesday, appointment on Wednesday....
Good luck to all of you xxx

Hi Purple welcome back! We're still here, still not pregnant. Wow, so your trip is happening this week. Let us know how you get on! Prague is lovely. Hopefully you'll come back with an action plan you can get started on asap.

Lovely to hear from you Purple!!!! I remembered your appt is coming up as it's the day before my appt. Although your's will be followed by a lovely dinner out and a night in a motel, where as I will be heading home to cook and wash dishes!

Blue, I didn't realise you had yet another chemical pregnancy last IVF you poor thing. I thought your clinic was closed over Christmas so you did a home test 16dpo (after you were unsure of the hospital cheapie result on day 15) and it was a BFN? Did you then have a blood test that showed traces of hCG?

blue, where did you hear about estrogen post EC? Was it suggested by your clinic or did you read research showing positive results? Did you ask your Dr about the estrogen post EC too or was it a question that occurred to you after your consult? Sorry for all the questions! After my appt I ban myself from further research as my IVF protocol is established and reading things that make me think I should be doing things differently only stresses me out. So just asking lots of questions now and doing all my research in the lead up to my appt.

PS, this estrogen after EC research is very contradictory... like every other study IVF related! Some studies show no higher success with estrogen post EC and of the ones that do, different studies show different doses to have higher success rates. I want to go into my appt with a specific protocol with regard to estrogen post EC and a specific dose in mind as I am sure my Dr will not spend hours doing the research for me. Hopefully I can colate these studies somehow and come to a conclusion!

Oh, and blue, how did you get on with sending your blood away for testing? Any results yet? I looked at your link and even collected my menstrual blood (fun!), then realised the cost and decided against it since I am still repaying my credit card from last IVF. I theorise that since I have one child, my uterus should be free of infection and I am assuming it is indeed as we have been diagnosed with hubbys sperm being 100% abnormal that is our issue.

Friday was day 2 of my cycle so I got those blood tests to determine if my hormones indicate I would benefit from DHEA. The test includes a FSH so I am a bit scared to get that result! Have you ever had your FSH tested blue since you are a lucky poor responder like me?

Shellster I am trying to stick to reducing my carbs and increasing vegetables and veg based roteins, and including full fat dairy. Basically I'm trying to eat less rice/pasta/bread/potatoes/sugar, no alcohol, increasing vegetables and fruit, increasing milk, cheese, ice cream and yoghurt, and eating more pulses like lentils and beans, and nuts and seeds. I'm avoiding soya, but I don't eat much of it anyway. i do eat meat as well.

I found a good website which shows good sources of protein on it, I'll post it if I can find it.

I have my planning appointment today - forms to fill and blood tests to be done I think. Have been wondering about the whole "how many embryos to put back" if we are lucky enough to get that far. Our consltant has recommended two.

Wow! Tomorrow Purple. That's come around fast. Christmas and New Year have been a wonderful distraction. Hope you get to see some of Prague too. I'm so excited for you taking the ED step, you must feel closer to achieving the dream.

Hi Blue!
I'm due for ET first week in Feb, nothing much happening. Another scan next week and then back the following week if all goes well. I don't have much hope at all and I'm not saying that in a 'cheer me on' way. I really just accept the stats are bad for my little 5dpo Grade 3 blast. It's probably genetically duff like the rest. I can hardly be bothered to get it transferred but better really. I feel there is more chance with starting another fresh cycle and putting 2 back again. I know that is illogical.

Shellster I took aspirin 75mg after ET. Purely by chance I'd stopped taking it at the start of that cycle because I'd forgotten to buy it and only remembered after ET when I stopped taking Fresh Royal Jelly.

I'm not sure whether to take Aspirin or not at the moment in preparation for ET. My OBGYN told me to take it after BFP for 3 months so I think i'll start taking it after ET.

I'm using MN far less since Christmas which is good for me as the whole TTC thing had become all consuming. I'm focussing on booking holidays and sorting my life out thanks to the Good Housekeeping threads! Mind you.. it helps that my hormones were shut down by decapeptyl injection and I can function as a normal human being for a while. Started Progynova last week so feeling a bit bloated but mentally stable for a change!

Hope you are all well and good luck to any others out there doing IVF / FET.

Hi all - Annie, stay positive about your FET! It's worth a try, right? There are loads of women on FF and other forums who got their 'frosty BFP'. Hopefully this will be your turn. You have nothing to lose.

Shellster, I haven't asked my doctor about estrogen, I've just seen it mentioned on other forums. I'll be interested to hear what your doctor says. I have no idea whether my estrogen levels were good/bad/ normal in previous cycles (I don't think they check as part of the regular blood tests). My FSH was 8.1 just before my last cycle (thankfully quite normal). Apparently FSH levels are quite random, though, so don't get too stressed about the number.

Yes I did get a beta test done around 19 dpo (I got a faint positive on an FRER around 17 dpo I think). The level was only 45 though, so....another chemical :(

And finally, I'm still waiting for my 'hidden infection' test results. I think I should hear later today. I'm still highly dubious about it all but I'm interested to know, and I'm happy to take antibiotics if required. I'll take ANYTHING if it will help!

So I have a question of my own...has anyone done a Menopur only cycle? My doctor has suggested this for my next go. Previously I've used Gonal F, or a combination of Gonal F/Menopur. He thinks it's worth trying Menopur alone to see if it stimulates a higher response.

Good luck Annie on your FET cycle, and purple over in Prague. I've heard some good things about some of the clinics there. I hope you can combine it with some sightseeing.

Blue I've dne Menopur only cycles (albeit for IUI only) and I had a better response to it than Puregon. I bought up that issue today as they have prescribed me Gonal F and I responded better when there was LH used in the stimulation injections. They are either going to add in the LH seperately or change the prescription to Menopur.

So I have to start Norethisterone tablets this month? Am a bit shocked it's all happening so quickly; when they told us March for IVF they were talking about the Egg collection part. I didn't comprehend that it would start so far in advance of that for some mad reason. So Shellster when should I stop the aspirin do you think so as not to interfere with egg growth?

Am very nervous that I will respond poorly and will get nothing. I've also been a bit sporadic in my taking of DHEA and Co Enzyme Q10 and so on over Christmas. Oh well, at least I'm getting started soon.

I like being on the other side of the world to you guys. I wake up and look forward to what you have all posted overnight!

Second, you sound like you are eating very healthy. And thanks for the reminder! The diet was done for 8 weeks before IVF in the study and I am into week 1-2 of 8 weeks now and haven't been that great so it is a timely reminder. Today is a new day and I am going to be perfect the whole day! Might re-read the study as inspiration. After 9 IVF failures it's hard to get back up and motivated again. Hope all goes well at your appt.

Lovely to hear from you annie, although I totally understand you trying to avoid being on here constantly and have TTC being all consuming. I have no advice re you taking Aspirin as my reason for taking it in the lead up is to increase my number of starting follicles which doesn't apply to you. I guess I am lucky that I have one son as I know I conceived him without taking Aspirin so I can be quietly confident that blood thinning is not an issue to hinder implantation.

blue, I didn't realise you got a +ive beta blood 3rd time too. Can totally understand then why you sent your blood away in a frustrating search for answers. It just seems very co-incidental that they are all miscarrying at exactly the same stage. I know a lady from my clinic who miscarried at 10 weeks and a biopsy showed a genetic abnormality. So you would think if that if yours was a case of genetically non-viable eggs, at least one embryo would have made it further than just after implantation. Definitely seems like there is a specific issue and I almost hope that your blood result shows something to give you an answer!

As for the Menopur only cycle, I can't even remember what combinations I have tried now that I am up to 9 failures! Will check my records and post again. I did read an actual study showing that Menopur creates a different follicular response and produces dominant follicles and I thought I had found the answer to why I was responding poorly when I had included Menopur in my cycles. Menopur was using the study to promote it's product as superior - I guess that's in the case of IUI where you only want one follicle. But for us poor responding IVFers - we want more than that! So last round I didn't include any LH product until day 7 and had record number of mature follicles (but stuffed up trigger instead). But then to add confusion Second reports she responded better to Menopur! Perhaps it was the Aspirin in the Puregon cycles that stopped the follicles growing past 10mm rather than Puregon being inferior at producing follicles! Who knows?!?!

Second, with regards to the Aspirin, I personally stop it around 7 days before my period arrives for my IVF cycle as my IVF Dr says it takes one week for Aspirin to be out of the system and that my follicles are determined by day 20 of the previous cycle anyway. But that's just my personal experience and if you/your Dr feels differently, you do what is right for you.

Hi all - my blood results arrived from Greece. All negative for 'hidden' chlamydia, ureaplasma, mycoplasma and other nasties, good news. I do have a reduced bacterial load though (?!) which is indicative of a possible bacterial infection, maybe e coli or proteus. The Greek doctor recommends a course of doxycycline during the next IVF round. I really have no idea if a bacterial infection makes any difference to IVF success but I'm happy to take antibiotics if it might help. I'm going to email my fertility consultant to see what he says (I'm a bit nervous....he told me not to bother doing this test as he thinks it's a waste of money!! )

Anyway who knows - I'm happy I don't have chlamydia, hidden or otherwise. 'Possible bacterial infection' doesn't sound too bad. I'll let you know what my consultant says about it all.

Shellster I agree, it is frustrating about the chemical pregnancies. It's such a common occurrence amongst women our age though - I'm pretty certain it's related to egg quality. Wish there was something I could do about that, I guess I just need to hope for a lucky egg/embryo.

Must be a relief to get negative results blue. So this test was done from your menstrual blood meaning this reduced bacterial load indicating e coli or proteus infection is in your uterus? Can understand you being nervous fessing up to your Dr about your Greece tests after him telling you not to bother! I feel silly bringing my Google research to my Dr and asking questions as though after their years of study, I think I know better because I've been on Dr Google!

In my quest to research taking estrogen tablets during the luteal phase of IVF cycle before my appointment, I have found this article:

informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/09513590.2014.887065

Now I am not wanting to turn you all into research freaks like me (which I plan to stop after my appt!), but I would really like help interpreting this article.

It compares three groups
1 - 33 patients on progesterone only = 12.1% clinical pregnancy rate
2 - 27 patients on progesterone + 2mg estrogen = 37% clinical pregnancy rate
3 - 35 patients on progesterone + 6mg estrogen

It then goes on to say that there was no significant difference between group 3 versus group 1 and between group 2 versus group 3.

This doesn't make sense to me. If group 3 is similar to group 1, then group 3 also had a preg rate of around 12.1%. But then it goes on to say that group 2 and group 3 had similar results, this means that group 3 had a success rate of 37%, not 12.1%????

I hope my question makes sense and that someone can see what obvious mistake I must be making to not understand this.

Good results blue. Don't worry consultants know we all gather as much info as we can and we can't help it.

Shellster, that's really tricky to understands. Does it mean:

Group 2 (on crinone + estrodil 2mg) had a 44% PR vs the group on crinone only (group 1) who got 18%

Group 3 (on crinone + estrodil 6mg) had a 37% PR vs the group on crinone only (group 1) who got 12.1%

I found the summary confusing too Shellster. looks like the estradiol did have a positive effect (and wasn't statistically detrimental)?

Blue that's good to be able to tick another thing off and reassure yourself with. I think you have to be your advocate in this process - otherwise you won't know what options are open to you and keep things moving. It's your body and life after all!

Hello ladies. Blue - I'm so sorry - I didn't see your post about having another chemical pregnancy before I posted the other day - I hadn't realised either. So frustrating.

Annie - chin up, lovely. It's definitely worth a try. I read something (a while back) from someone who had started out with about 6 frosties, and had worked her way through them. She got to the very last one and transferred it in a "oh well, might as well" frame of mind, and said "and that's the one that's now sitting in front of me, 10 months old and beating the bejesus out of her toy". (So I'm cheerleading whether you like it or not )
Shellster and Sunrise - nope. I don't get that, either. Looks like a pretty significant difference to me!
Our trip to Prague was really positive. Knackering, but positive. We spent about 5 hours at the clinic. They do an ultrasound-guided transfer (the clinic we went to in the UK did blind transfers) and the gynae did the most thorough examination I've ever had. He made notes about the length of my uterus, worked out where all my fibroids are so that he can avoid them when they do the transfer, looked at my c-section scar closely, looked at the structure and position of the fibroids, the condition of my tubes and ovaries (although we'll be doing DE) and announced that he was far more optimistic, having examined me, than he was from looking at my history. They also ran a test for thrombophilia mutation MTHFR (which looks rude, no?)
DH produced his sperm sample and they did the analysis, said it was good enough quality and froze 5 ampoules. Apparently you have to do at least ICSI with frozen samples, because motility and mobility is affected by the freeze/thaw process. They do PICSI there.
And we've had an email today to say that our first choice of egg donor is well and willing to do a cycle now, which is great. So, I'm taking the pill so that I can coordinate my cycle with her, and I'll down-reg at the same time as she does.

Oh wow purple that sounds soooo positive . Lol at MTHFR!

Definite LOL at the MTHFR! I will never forget that acronym now! I have never bothered with immunity/blood tests as I figure I have one child so I can conclude that isn't our issue. But if your Dr is testing you then I am going to look into it. No harm. Not heard of PICSI either! All sounds very up to date with the latest medical advances. Must be very reassuring that they were so extremely thorough, even looking at how to avoid your fibroids for the transfer. Wow, so suddenly it's all happening and you are on the pill getting ready. Do you have any idea when the EC will happen?

Thanks for you help in trying to understand that study. As you say Second it definitely seems like the estradiol had a positive effect. This study seems to advocate taking 2mg daily but I am just trying to understand what this study results were for 6mg daily. Another study showed significantly highest preg rates on 6mg, so I would feel more confident doing that if this 2nd study also backed up that dose. But I can't for the life of me work out what this study says the 6mg estrogen results were! Reassuring that you guys found it just as confusing and it's not me, but frustrating at the same time! Will see what my Dr says about it then TRY to trust in her plan and not stress myself about my next IVF strategy anymore!

blue, I know you were interested in estrogen post transfer. So I will say the one thing I have derived from all my reading about it is that it seems to be for the purpose of preparing the lining for implantation, as the extra follicles producing unusually high estrogen levels during the IVF cycle which puts our lining out of sync. (Apparently why there is higher success with FET's than fresh cycles.) But you do not appear to have issues like this as your lining does seem receptive for your embryo to implant. Hope that provides some reassurance to you that you don't need to worry your Dr has not prescribed this for you. Or perhaps frustration at the same time because it's one more thing that doesn't provide a solution for you little embryos to stick.

Purple great to hear that your meeting went well. Your new doctor definitely sounds like he knows what he is doing. The fibroid thing is interesting...you don't have fibroids inside your uterus, do you? I'm assuming not, because I have been categorically told that fibroids inside the cavity prevent implantation (which is why I had one removed before I started IVF). If your fibroids ARE on the outside then it's interesting to hear he's planning to avoid them during egg transfer. I didn't realise that fibroids on the outside make a difference. Anyway, please let me know! I am also the unfortunate owner of a fibroidous(?) womb :(

It's pretty amazing to think there is a woman somewhere in the Czech Republic getting ready to make some eggs for you. Hopefully she looks like the most famous Czech woman I can think of, Eva Herzigova

Shellster thanks for the info on estrogen. I might ask my doctor about it when I see him, but if it's related to womb lining then I think I usually do ok in that department. Something else I've been thinking about is the ERA test (endometrial receptivity array), which apparently is useful for women with apparently good embryos but repeated transfer failure. It's pretty new and I'm not sure there are any clinics in the UK that offer it. It may be nonsense but it's my latest internet research project . Has anyone heard of this?

Ha ha! Not sure about our donor looking like that....people might wonder where this supermodel baby has come from!
Actually - and this is not going to surprise any of you lovely ladies - the donor database gave me a whole new way of obsessing about this process. DH was most amused. It includes age, hair colour, eye colour, blood group, height, weight, educational level and interests. We've decided that if this works, we won't tell people (other than a few who've been around to support us through this) that we used donor eggs - some of my family in particular are very indiscreet and we think that this will be the child's story and his/her right to tell people or not. So in order to make it plausibly our child, I scored each feature to be as close as possible to me, put them all in an excel spreadsheet and requested one of the top three.
Our donor's a bit taller and thinner than me (so something of an upgrade, really , but she's musical and that made me happy as music is really important to me, whereas DH is totally tone-deaf.
So yes, she's being prepared for egg donation from now, and we're anticipating EC in a couple of months' time. And another fleeting visit to Prague!
Shellster - I need to consult Dr Google about my drugs this time, because there are lots of names I don't recognise and the Czech words for the hormones were often different, so I'm not quite sure what I'm on. No Cyclogest this time - the progesterone is a spherical pill that can be inserted as a vaginal suppository, or taken orally! They recommend using them vaginally except on the day of ET, so that it doesn't interfere with uptake.

Purple that's awesome, I can see how you might get obsessed with that process! It's great that you have so much information. And picking someone a bit taller (and thinner) than you seems perfectly reasonable. I really, really hope it works out for you - it's very exciting.

Thanks, lovely. I feel pretty optimistic...if we have any chance of adding to our family, I feel this is it. Here's hoping...