Anyone starting IVF soon? Join me (2)

[purplemeggie]

I see we've filled up the thread and thought I'd better start another one. How's everyone doing?

oh and Shellster if you are out there....can you let me know what your aspirin protocol is? I think you take it early in your cycle and then stop...?

Back from my holiday now, where I ate loads of crap, drank lots of alcohol and vented lots with my sister. But everyone elses renewed enthusiasm on here despite their IVF failures of 2014 is making me regain mine.

As for the Aspirin Blue, I first read this article which showed a large, normal and small ovary and their corresponding amount of day 2 antrals. I looked at my recent ultrasound and interestingly, my ovary size fitted that of a normal ovary, yet my antral follicle count was much lower. That is when I thought it was a blood flow supply issue and indeed the Aspirin did help increase my follicle count. Do you know your ovary size for you to see if it is a blood flow issue that Aspirin could help with or if your ovaries are genuinely smaller with a lower egg reserve?

For me, I take the Aspirin for two cycles prior to the IVF cycle, stopping it on day 20 of the second cycle prior to commencing IVF the following cycle. I wanted it to be out of my system for the IVF cycle as once, I continued it during the IVF cycle and despite starting with 16 follicles, only 3 responded which my IVF Dr thought was bizarre and then I read that Aspirin interferes with follicle growth. After one cycle of taking it, my day 2 follicle count was still low the following cycle. But after two cycles of taking it, my day 2 follicle count has drastically increased. I guess that makes sense since they say your follicles are selected by your body a couple of months in advance.

When are you planning on going again Blue? I would like to start again sooner rather than later as I too am 38 in July, but with my recent holiday, junk food and alcohol bender, and knowing that my eggs are affected by this for two months prior to an IVF cycle, I think I should wait... but then my eggs will only continue to age. Have my WTF appt on 30th Jan so I shall see.

That's very interesting about sending your blood to Athens. Is that something you can organise yourself? And I too have read of intralipids but haven't bothered since it doesn't seem to be done here and I figure I have been pregnant once before. But after my last IVF cycle where I am convinced the embryo implanted but didn't stick around, if you learn any more about it, please let me know.

Purple, you're sounding very enthusiastic about you appointment on the 29th (day before my appt). I am glad you have gotten past the hurdle of telling your cousins daughter of your plans. Of course they are not offended about your decision but I can imagine your hesitation so I am glad that it's all cleared up and you can now focus on what's ahead.

Hi Shellster, glad to hear you had a nice holiday. I also ate loads and drank quite a few glasses of champagne.....oh well. I think we deserve a bit of RALG!

Thanks for the info about aspirin, I'll definitely ask my doctor about it next week. Interesting that the effects kicked in after 2 cycles. We're planning to get started ASAP but it will depend on my antral follicle count...I might have to wait a month or two. If so, perhaps I'll have time to get started on the aspirin. I've been taking CoQ10 600mg a day for the last few months, and recently started on L Arginine too (although the supplements clearly didn't help much in our last cycle, so I do wonder whether they are worth the time and effort). Our doc mentioned DHEA last time so that might be another one to add to the list, although I'm a bit worried about side effects.

The hidden infection tests are easy to organise - you just have to follow the steps on the IVF Serum website here. Apparently Greece is the only country that does these tests. We've already tested negative for all the regular swab tests, but apparently infections can stay 'hidden' in the womb and affect implantation. I'm somewhat dubious about it all but it's not too expensive (in the grand scheme of things) and I'm pretty desperate, so I'm going to give it a go. If I test positive for anything the treatment is antibiotics, which is pretty straightforward.

Will be curious to hear what your Dr thinks of the Aspirin theory Blue. My Dr doesn't think the Aspirin does anything. But she wasn't against me taking it either. But I have seen that with Aspirin I start with a follicle count of 5-6, and with it, I start with a follicle count of 16-20. And I've had 9 attempts at IVF now so I know its not co-incidence. So it DEFINITELY helps my body increase my AFC. But like I said, I have normal size ovaries, yet poor blood flow to them. So it helps in my circumstance. Not sure if you know your ovary sizes from any previous ultrasound reports to know if this is your circumstance? I think it makes perfect sense that the Aspirin takes two months to take effect. I have read that the follicles are already pre-determined a couple of months before the actual cycle in which they grow. So taking Aspirin now isn't going to help our follicle count for next month as those follicles are already pre-determined by our body. The study on the high protein-low carb diet also had the participants do the diet for two months prior to IVF - I assume for the same reason.

So with that in mind, because I have eaten and drank crap this cycle, I am going to (hopefully!) get back on track with the diet and wait two full cycles after this cycle finishes before I start IVF again which means I will be trying again around mid March.

Who knows if the supplements help or not. I guess I figure that they are cheap (relative to the cost of IVF) so they can't do any harm.

Thanks for the info on the IVF serum test. I am at work now but will have a look later. I can understand after having two chemical pregnancies that you would be highly suspicious that there is something causing this. I am absolutely convinced last cycle that the embryo did actually implant based on my definite symptoms and late period, but perhaps had a genetic abnormality and that's why it didn't stick.

I shall wait to hear how you get on with your WTF appointment this week.

And purple, I look forward to hearing how your appt goes on the 29th!

Hi Shellster - I like the aspirin idea. I'm going to run it past our doctor on Thursday but personally I can't see the harm in it. I guess it will depend on when we're planning to get started though...if it's happening in the next cycle then I probably won't have time. I'm not sure about the size of my ovaries (!), I'll ask the doctor about that too.

I ordered some L'Arginine. What supplements are you taking? In fact, what supplements is everyone taking?! It would be good to compare notes.

Interesting to hear aspirin can help with follicle numbers - I've been advised to take it because of previous miscarriages but I'll start taking it now as out iVF is planned for around March.

blue I'm taking coenzyme Q10 and DHEA, plus a basic multi B vitamin as I have hypothyroidism. I used DHEA while TTC first time and I'm sure it helped as I'm a poor responder. The only side effects I've noticed is an increased hairiness! Attractive eh.

I'm waiting for my planning appointment now and to discuss having an endoscratch. Seems worth it for the small cost.
Happy New Year everyone.

Thanks second sunrise - I could actually do with some hairiness as the IVF hormones have made my hair thin...maybe DHEA is the answer!

I think there will be a few of us cycling in Feb/March so you are in good company here.

Hairy nips though blue?

Hi *Sunrise. Not sure if we've spoken before? If not, welcome to this thread of ranting infertility stories and failed IVF sagas. So you can conceive but miscarry? Or are you now struggling to conceive as well to be visiting the infertility section and planning IVF? I am planning to repeat IVF in March too so if you stick around here, we will be going through the lead up and IVF cycle together. What are your next steps from here then? Is everything arranged or do you have appts booked?

Still not quite back on track with my IVF diet after my holidays of bad food and alcohol. Must get my act together as I was so so close last IVF and now I feel lie I have just sabotaged a years effort with 3 weeks of crap and if my embryos are no good next IVF, I don't want to look back at this period of unhealthiness and wonder 'what if...'

Interesting about the DHEA causing hairiness. My Dr warned me that it could cause hair thinning! I guess as it increases testosterone (male hormone), it would make sense that it causes extra hair on the body and thinning on the head in male fashion. Word of warning: Dr said hair doesn't regrow after stopping taking it. I personally have been taking DHEA on and off since Sep 13 and haven't noticed these side effects... perhaps as my testosterone is low to begin with?

Blue, if you want to take DHEA based on your bodies requirements rather guessing, here is a website that lists the actual blood tests to determine if your body is low in DHEAS. Perhaps you might be interested in getting tested too Sunrise*. if you are getting extra hairs as perhaps overdosing on it is bad for egg quality just as much as too little.

Well, my IVF appointment isn't until the 30th Jan so no new news until then unless I report some miraculous natural BFP in the meantime. Looking forward to hearing how your appt goes Blue.

Purple, haven't heard from you in a bit. Hope it's because you are just taking a break from all this until your appt on the 30th. Thinking of you.

Interesting thanks Shellster about DHEA testing. I did post a little while ago but not much is happening as I wait for my planning appointment.

I have a DC1 from IUI previously, I have also had two miscarriages before I had my first child. I took heparin and aspirin on the IUI that resulted in my DD so it's more a belt and braces type thing. I have also had to cancel IUI (my first one in 2010 and a recent one in 2014) due to poor/no response to Menopur, hence waiting for IVF. Hopefully IVF can help weed out any poor quality embryos to give us the best chance of a live baby at the end of this process. I have conceived 3 times but never without fertility meds.

What are your plans now? What is the IVF diet you are trying? I've been recommended a high protein diet but am struggling to alter my diet to adapt to this.

Hi all - I don't mind hairy nips if it will help me get pregnant!

I had my WTF meeting this morning. The most depressing thing of all was the statistics update....apparently the likelihood of IVF working for us is now around 19%. It's usually 38% for a woman of my age, but that number is halved after 3 unsuccessful rounds. Shellster I think it's different for you as you've already conceived, but for me it's now.....19%.

So we proceeded to tell the doctor that we'd like to have one more go with my own eggs (despite the crappy odds). My health insurance is currently paying half towards our treatment so we'd like to try again. We'll move on to egg donation with no regrets if it doesn't work.

Everything looked great in the last cycle (hormone levels, womb lining etc) so it's almost certainly down to egg/embryo quality. As expected, the doctor confirmed that there is really nothing we can do about egg quality. He did say that DHEA might be worth a try as he has seen it work in other women, but aside from that....not much else we can do.

He told me that intralipids/hidden infections/embryo glue and scratch are all 'snake oil' sold by fertility clinics looking to make extra $$, and there is no medical evidence to support any of these things. I knew he would say that. I might decide to do a few things on the side anyway.

So in a nutshell, a somewhat depressing meeting. We're determined to give it another go, though, so it looks like I'll be back on the bus in mid/late Feb. Shellster the link didn't work but I googled DHEA blood tests and I've emailed my doctor - it definitely seems worth getting my blood checked before starting anything new. He suggested I take the DHEA for 6-12 weeks starting ASAP, but he didn't mention a blood test. I'm glad you did!

Sorry for the extra long 'me' post. Sunrise I'm sure you'll find this forum useful, I definitely do. Can I ask how old you are?

Oh and Sunrise, regarding diet....if you're struggling to eat more protein then I know a lot of women take whey powder supplement. It's an easy way to get more protein without having to eat extra meat, eggs and cheese.

Sunrise are you keeping tsh under 2.5 - that was what my clinic recommended?

blue, sounds like you've already worked out what blood tests you need to determine if you require DHEA and emailed your Dr. But here is that link again in case this site is any extra use. Can totally understand feeling depressed at your stats of success going from 38 to 19%. But then again, because most women get 2-3 times the amount of eggs as us, I really think it would take 6-9 goes of IVF for us to get the number of eggs other women produce in 3 rounds to find their golden egg. Did you decide upon a protocol? Mid to late Feb then hey - I hope it's closer to late Feb so that I will be just two weeks behind when I start mid March.

sunrise, your story does sound familiar now that you re-tell it. Thanks for the refresher. Can I ask what dose of Menopur you were on and what was considered a poor response to have to cancel IUI? Very happy to have you here. The three of us being poor responders will help me feel like my IVF response is normal as we all go through it instead of seeing others on here produce 15 eggs while I produce 3-4. Can I ask, did you take the Aspirin and Heparin right from the start of your IUI cycle? Will you repeat that with IVF? I too was doing the high protein diet. I am vego for 20 years but was chowing down fish to up the protein. After last IVF failed, I gave myself a break but must somehow get re-motivated since now it's 8 weeks til I try IVF again. As blue suggests, I always start the day with a protein shake.

Hi Shellster link still isn't working for some reason! Weird. Looks like fertility friends though so I'll try and find it myself.

I'll be on a short protocol again, ie, no downregging. I've decided against DHEA - my hair thinning is already pretty serious (my mum has 'male pattern alopecia') and I just don't want to risk it. Apparently the DHEA hair loss can be irreversible. I feel slightly guilty about not trying DHEA but hey, TTC has already taken over my life for the last XXX years so I think I've earned the right to say 'no' to something for a change.

Here's a question for you and everyone else - has anyone self-medicated with progesterone during a natural cycle? I've used OPK this month and we're regularly doing the deed. Just wondering if it would help to take some cyclogest 'just in case' (just in case an absolute one in a million miracle happens.....)

Hmm, sorry, don't know why that link isn't working. The 2nd time, I even pasted the link into my browser to make sure it works before I pasted it onto the thread. Anyway, if you've decided against the DHEA then it doesn't matter anyway. Your embryo quality already seems very good anyway in that they are the right number of cells for how many days old they are and they make it to day 5. Is it that 2 in 3 eggs at our age are genetically abnormal? So perhaps it's just bad luck that this was the case for you with your first two IVF's and that's why you miscarried early which DHEA will not fix anyway.

Yes, I have tried progesterone in a natural cycle. The book 'Infertility - The Hidden Causes' by Dr Sandra CABOT says that natural progesterone (not syntetic) mimics the bodies progesterone and can only be helpful in a pregnancy. I know Crinone and Endometrin and both natural. Not sure about Cyclogest. So I don't see it as controversial at all unlike some other things like the Aspirin and DHEA. But I don't bother trying that anymore during a natural cycle... after 46 cycles of nothing I know it's a waste of time. I'm saving my reserves for my IVF pregnancy as my clinic only gives me two weeks supply but I want to take it longer than that.

That's the frustrating thing about IVF - I have no idea how good my eggs are. I'm assuming not very good based on my track record so far. Anyway, not a lot I can do about it other than hope for the best. I wish there was a way of knowing exactly what is going wrong. IVF is an extremely random and fickle business!

I'll be getting started again around 21st Feb I think, so we won't be too far away from one another. I've decided not to bother with the progesterone this cycle. The likelihood of me being pregnant is slim to none and the pessaries make me feel cross, bloated and constipated. Why bother!

Yes, after trying naturally for so long, I thought IVF would finally give me some insight as things are happening outside the body. But we are still left wondering. Sounds like a good plan blue to forget about it this cycle. You'll have enough stress in your IVF cycle.

So starting 21st Feb. You'll be about 3 weeks ahead of me then. I assume that means you are finishing this cycle then waiting one more whole cycle before starting? Is there a reason why you are waiting an extra cycle? Is that to give the Aspirin time to do something? Have you started the Aspirin.

Oh, speaking of tablets, you asked what we are taking. Here's my list:
AM: CoQ10, Fish Oil, Maca, Royal Jelly
Day: Folic Acid, Iron, Vit C, Vit E
PM: Aspirin, CoQ10, Fish Oil, Melatonin, Royal Jelly, Vit D

Well after getting a definite feeling in my uterus from day 24 last cycle that told me I was pregnant, I have set that as my benchmark for knowing an embryo has taken. So with today being day 24 and feeling zilch, I know I am not pregnant (big surprise!)

blue probably a good idea to have a break from the drugs a bit anyway, and better to not have yet another thing to remember to take/do. I'm sorry the feedback session wasn't more positive but your plan forward sounds good.

I'm 38, 39 this year. I took aspirin throughout my cycles and heparin was only started after I got a BFP. The clinic's thoughts are that there is little evidence that DHEA or the aspirin/heparin would have helped me but when using those together it worked so keep to the same regime as it can't hurt.

My last TSH was 2.59 in June. I should get it retested so thanks for that naty. I have had to push to get any thyroxine medication at all, but am happy to push for what I need on that front.

"shellster" I was on starting dose of 150 Menopur and that was bumped to 300 which is the maximum my clinic will give you (let alone for IUI). After 15 days I still had very small follicles (under 10mm) and only two if that so we decided that it wasn't worth it to continue. I can't remember what dose/follicle number I had on my very first IUI that got abandoned, but think it was a very low starting dose anyway.

Thanks for all the support.

Secondsunrise it's interesting to hear that you were on aspirin too. I think it's a bit too late for my next IVF cycle at the end of Feb, particularly given Shellster's experience (I don't want to be taking aspirin during my cycle if there's a chance it might hinder follicle growth).

Anyway loads to think about as usual and basically NO clear advice available on the internet or from my doctor! Shellster is my unofficial IVF doctor so I think I'll just follow her advice :)

Looks like we're on similar supplements. I'm not taking Royal Jelly (might give that a whirl....I'm taking everything else!). I also have a wheatgrass shot every morning and I've just started taking L Arginine too. I'm surprised I don't rattle when I walk.

Sunrise so this will be your first IVF then? Exciting! Hopefully it will be nice and easy for you.

Nooo... don't use me as your unofficial IVF Dr... 9 rounds of IVF... not a hint of a BFP... not much of a qualification!

Speaking of L-Arginine, here's an interesting excerpt from a website.
Take 16 grams of l-arginine from day one until at least one follicle >17mm in diameter is present to reduce cancellation rate from 76% to 11%, to increase the number of oocytes collected from 1.6 to 4.1.

sites.google.com/site/miscarriageresearch/how-to-boost-fertility
(providing the actual website for you to copy and paste if you desire since my links never work!)

Just wanted to share as if you are not taking the Aspirin, perhaps this might be something you could try instead? Although, if you probe further, there are other studies on the net that say it reduces the follicle numbers!

Can I ask then blue, what made you decide to wait for another whole cycle to pass before you start IVF if you wanted to get started ASAP? I thought it was so the Aspirin could take effect but you are not trying that.

Second, I will be 38 in July. So nice that the three of us are all are the same age and all in the lovely 'poor responder category'. Yes, it's very interesting that you were on Aspirin too. I took Aspirin in the lead up to my IVF cycle. My follicle count on day 2 was usually 5-6 but I took Aspirin for 2 months in the lead up to an IVF cycle and started with a day 2 count of 16! I was amazed. I kept taking it throughout my IVF cycle and despite starting with a record 16 follicles, only 3 grew. My IVF Dr thought it was an unusually low response. I then read that Aspirin interferes with follicle growth. Your story of having follicles less than 10mm after 15 days of stimming seems to back up what I have read. So now I take it in the lead up to IVF but stop at day 20 the cycle before my IVF cycle so it is out of my system and doesn't interfere with follicle growth.

I totally understand that you might want to continue it through your IVF cycle regardless since you managed to get DC1 while taking Aspirin, but just thought I'd share.

Shellster the link you sent is really interesting. Loads of good info on there. I didn't know there was a link between exercise and low pregnancy rates, that's slightly alarming. I exercise every day for at least 30 mins and have done for the last 20 years I reckon. I've read elsewhere that it's mainly related to cardio exercise so I have cut back on running. Yikes - so many things to learn/remember.

I'm not sure about the L'Arginine. There's lots of conflicting info out there. I've decided just to take it for now and stop a week or so before my actual IVF cycle starts. Based on your experience I wonder if I've got time to take some aspirin after all. Just so I've got it right....if I start taking it now, you recommend that I stop in day 20 of my next cycle? My period is due around 24th Jan then again around 21st Feb (when I'll start IVF). So I guess I could stop taking the aspirin in mid Feb.

Let me know what you think, please!

I'm waiting until Feb on doctor's orders. He doesn't like doing back to back cycles - he'd prefer to wait until I've had a month off. Probably sensible.

But your last IVF cycle was December. So it will be a two cycle break between IVF cycles - not one? Or have I got all your dates mixed up amidst my own IVF sagas?

Yes, I too have found lots of conflicting info re L-Arginine - and on everything else IVF related for that matter - including Aspirin. One study I read showed that those who took it during an IVF cycle had reduced follicle numbers while another study had double the number of eggs retrieved, but that definitely wasn't the case for me. So yes, if you period is due around 21st Feb, then I would stop taking the Aspirin around 14th Feb as my IVF Dr said it takes about a week for Aspirin to be out of the system and I wanted to make sure it wasn't going to interfere with follicle growth when I started the IVF meds. Seemed to work as I had 8 mature follicles the last two cycles when I did this instead of 3 mature after starting with 16 and taking Aspirin the cycle before. It's just that I had trigger injection disasters the last two cycles that caused me to have few mature eggs, but otherwise the Aspirin did not interfere with the follicle growth at all when I stopped it at day 20-21. Just looking back at my personal notes when I first started trialing Aspirin:
02.09.13 Day one of IVF cycle. Day 2 scan shows 8 antral follicles.
28.09.13 Period arrived. IVF failed. Start trialling Aspirin.
26.10.13 Period arrived. Have day 3 scan. 6 antral follicles. Think Aspirin doesn't work :(
20.11.13 Period arrived. Have day 2 scan. 15 antral follicles!!!!
So it definitely took two cycles for the Aspirin to take effect in my case. Would you be willing to wait just one more cycle if it meant perhaps double the amount of follicles and eggs retrieved and upping the chance of success?

I was advised to take aspirin from a recurrent miscarriage perspective but I think I will stop a week before my Feb period so it gets out of my system. I want maximum chance of eggs really at this stage. The nurse I was chatting too before we decided to cancel the last cycle said that sometimes your body is just not up for it and nothing will help that cycle and your body will just respond better other cycles.

Thanks for the link shellster interesting that there there is some conflicting advice on some of the studies, such as "eating more high fibre low -glycemic index foods" improves fertility but increasing fibre rich foods increases risk of anovulatory cycle. Also, "increasing vegetable protein (like soy) .. was key to increasing fertility" but "soy causes miscarriage and infertility in mice". I guess the key thing is not to agonise too much about the minutiae of lifestyle/diet and so on but just do what you can to live healthily and do what feels right for you? And it's clear that infertility is in desperate need of proper research and robust scientific studies!

Hi Ladies and welcome secondsunrise! Happy new year to you all.

I've been researching low dose aspirin for my FET cycle. I took 50mg at night for my fresh cycle and I'm deciding whether or not to do it again this month. I wasn't told to take it I just did. I'm taking pregnacare conceive, CQ10 and L-Arginine and Omega 3+6+9.

The research is inconclusive so it's a gamble!