Drug addicts paid to be sterilised

[MarthaQuest]

In today's Guardian

I thought I was left wing, but I found myself agreeing with most of this article.

What do you all think?

Octavia, feel free to add to the debate without denigrating others' view as being subject to personal bias because they were honest and brave enough to describe their personal experience.

You are hoisted on your own petard and a distraction to your self-annointed rules of 'rational' argument.

A crime against humanity is giving birth to a drug addicted baby who will have an appalling childhood and probably life.

If a mother cannot get clean while she's pregnant then the baby needs to be adopted straight away. Imagine the poor little wretch bonding with a foster mother for 6-8 months then going back to a disorganised junkie who has got a supply of methadone to dip the dummy into. Youre living in cloud cuckoo land if you think you can pass babies around like that.

Its about time babies and children had a few rights to protect them from parents who are certain to do them harm because their own needs are more pressing.

We are not talking about completely voluntay sterlisation, because as I keep saying addicts are not in a sound mental state. It is coerced sterilisation, masquerading as voluntary.
Of course i suppose offerning money for implants is coercive as well, but in that case I think the end does justify the means as implants do not qualify as permanent bodily mutilation

Comparisons with social engineering and nazi germany are frankly irrational, maybe?

I don't know if you're referring to a comment I made previously,,
withorwithoutyou but I would have thought it was obvious that I meant the incentive to get clean was the children the addict may have Already had before sterilisation.

Alouiseg, I am not advocating for a baby in foster care to be returned to an addicted mum with a supply of methadone. As I said, clean or baby gets adopted. There is such a thing as concurrent planning- the foster family are the adopters unless the parent dramatically changes their lifestyle.

Stop comparing drug addicts to people with mental health issues. Addicts choose to take drugs people who are mentally ill dont choose their illness.

Octavia, I'm sorry but I think you've been really rude to expat.

You asked her the question directly:

"Some of us are getting a bit fed up of the 'human rights' of ordinary people being last on the list for consideration.^

and how does this affect you exactly?"

She told you.

You asked, she shared. Personal bias doesn't come into it.

Instead I am trying to make people realise that this is coercive and not voluntary, and that a permanent solution to a possibly temporary problm is not the answer

Sorry martha, that comment was in response to aspiegirl:

"I do know a woman who got pregnant and got clean, and is a fantastic mother. By sterilisation you are permanently removing one of the biggest incentives to get clean"

far worse things happen

'however, i believe any discussion of important issues should be done reasonably and calmly, without being clouded by personal bias. without rational argument, we are incapable of arriving at the right decision. for everyone.'

so you want to swap then, octavia? you want to live our lives and we'll live yours, for the purposes of clarity, so my personal bias can be absolved by yours?

i'll be happy to save for moving expenses, too.

and anyone knows i'm not one to throw that out and not mean it.

i don't just talk the talk.

So a prospective adoptive family will have to look after their new baby knowing that the birth mother just might get her shit together??

Would you like to go over to the Fostering and adoption thread and run that by them? The baby would first have to go to a foster parent with knowledge and experience of looking after an addicted baby. It takes time, skill, care, love and experience. All for nothing if the baby has to go back to the skank that didnt care enough to make sure her baby had the best start in life.

Some addicts did not choose at first. Some unfortunate girls are trafficked and forced to take heroin to make hem docile before being raped. They will then eventually wind up addicted through no fault of their own.
And I am comparing drug addicts to mentally ill people. It's not the same, I'm not saying it is, but drugs alter your mental state from healthy to ill, and you shouldn't try to deny that Alouiseg

i've been mentally ill for nearly 7 years, too.

it started as PND.

it's still here!

Aspiegal. That is an entirely different situation and you are taking it to extremes. I submit that the vast majority of addicts managed it all by themselves.

If that so called 'skank' got herself clean after birth then she obviously does care. I'm happy for anyone from the fostering and adoption threads to ocme by here and offer their opinions

eventually, aspie, as an adult, you either make a choice. or you don't.

you can't use an entire adulthood as an excuse or you can.

but i don't patronise even addicts.

i spoke at length to the dweller below us before this.

he knew. he would get aggro on speed that he used after he fixed too much.

i told him, 'you will die this way if you keep on,' and what help he'd had.

lots of offers of support.

he continued on.

he's dead now.

the other, he couldn't have cared less.

he even followed a person he'd argued with in public when the police broke it up and moved them on.

he followed this man and this man killed him and nearly killed a friend of his.

Then stop generalising Alouiseg! I wouldn't have to go to 'exremes' (you seem to think this is an uncommon practise) if you didn't give the impression you thought everyone can fit into one basket

Expatinscotland That is bloody awful, imagine the resources that mental health would have if it wasnt being spent on chasing the tail of the addicts and picking up their pieces. I imagine that they can access far more support than a mother with pnd can.

an i never used skank or that.

this is my life, but somehow we're supposed to keep it all academic?

you think addicts have just zero control over themselves? they're something less than you and me?

well, you're just as patronising as you think i am.

my offer still holds. anyone want to swap?

Patronising??

Now I'm off but frankly although i support the offering of year implants to addicts I will never support sterilisation and will fight against it until the end (when I will emigrate!)
Thankfull Alouiseg you are in a tiny minority and most rational people would gape in horror at you

Of 5 year implants that should say