Well done Belgium. Veil banned

[Nuttybear]

I fully support this. Really wish the liberals would put aside there protection of these men and free the women here. I vote for bring the same law here. I despise the veil and all it stands for. I saw a woman trip and fall because she could not see the kerb!!! Her husband/uncle/dad then had to guide her over the next kerb. I saw them again in the supermarket I so wanted to throw eggs at him but it would only make her plight worse. I know a minority want to wear the veil. Well, there are countries that support that decision. I know it might make matter worse for some but there must be a stand to free these women of this 13th century habit. Wearing of the veil is not in the Koran. All for modest dress, if you so wish but, unable to look around your world freely is wrong.

Actually my view of veil wearing is not subjective, I do not wear one. Never been naive enough for all that religious malarkey.

"I don't actually care how a Muslim woman sees wearing the veil, this is much broader than someone's subjective view."

as opposed to your all knowing objective view posie??? Isn't the whole point, if a muslim woman who wears it doesn't find it oppressive, then it isn't.

If the argument is that women have been forced to wear the things, then surely the fines/imprisonment should be imposed on their husband/father not the woman?

If a woman is oppressed, then this ban will either imprison her in her house or a Belgian jail. Doesn't really make sense does it?

Well I don't think I am influenced by Mumsnet but I would never leave my house in Crocs.....

Huh? That makes no sense!

Whether you wear a veil or not is a fact. It's not subjective that you don't wear a veil, and neither is it subjective that someone does. You do or you don't.

If you agree or don't agree with it - that is a matter of opinion. And I didn't actually say your view was subjective, I said that you can't ignore the feelings of women who wear the veil if you propose banning it simply by saying their views are merely 'subjective', because if their views are, then so are yours.

I'm not religious either, but it doesn't mean I think everybody who has a faith is 'naive', and I certainly don't think that means my views are more 'objective' and that I can just ban whatever they do on the strength of it. That's a really dangerous viewpoint.

subjective - "placing excessive emphasis on one's own moods, attitudes, opinions, etc.; unduly egocentric".

You are being subjective, you don't like it. If you were being objective you would be weighing up the odds, looking at the positives of both sides and coming to a conclusion. Your posts are very much based on your very obviously uninformed opinion. You can only judge based on what you have seen from a distance and thus it is subjective.

What precisely is broader

Grimma I agree

Regardless of the rights/wrongs of wearing it I think the 'right to wear it' thing is a bit of a false argument.

We are always taking away the rights of people to do things in order to make society work better. It's what society is for really. The right to go where you want is limited by other people's right to privacy and so on.

Since we know it's not actually a religious requirement then we have to weigh up two sets of consequences.

On the one hand some woman just want to wear it. Fair enough.

On the other it's used as a means/symbol of oppression and interferes with the usual interactions between people in public and causes security issues (not just in the sense of terrorism, but even in knowing who is taking which kid from the park)

Give me one good reason for wearing a veil that isn't an expression of religion, as we all know the Koran does not mention face covering at all.

There are NO positives to covering ones face NONE.

My uninformed opinion, based upon what? I have lived in a very Muslim part of the country, taught in Muslim schools and studied Islam as part of my degree. What is uninformed about that? I don't have to have veiled friends to know about veils.

and note that if masks are allowed then you don't know that is a muslim behind it.

Or participate in online discussions.

Oh, so all the people who think facial viewing is essential to communication should now disappear from this thread in a puff of logic.

Other reasons for covering face? Sensitivity to sunlight. Facial disfigurement. Someone who's trying to escape abusive partner but unable to leave neighbourhood.

For a Muslim woman to wear a veil.

"My uninformed opinion, based upon what? I have lived in a very Muslim part of the country, taught in Muslim schools and studied Islam as part of my degree. What is uninformed about that? I don't have to have veiled friends to know about veils."

... and my friend's black

Onagar has made the only rational (versus emotive ) argument for the banning

Riven/Grimma we can communicate by tapping out morse if you prefer. It would work and if no other method is available is better then nothing.

Smilies are a crude attempt to replace facial expressions since we all feel that words along can be inadequate at times. Look at how popular smilies are.

I understand that executives/managers who would normally only interact over the phone are strongly encouraged to meet their counterparts in person since the phone/net is seen as an inferior method of learning about someone and can lead to misunderstandings

Presumably that is based on experience and/or studies. Perhaps someone here knows more about that and can comment.

Cagedbird....What is an informed opinion? Do I have to be a Muslim? Marry one?

Rational argument for wearing the veil is....

Personally and i may be completely wrong ,but i dont think so somehow, anti muslim feeling in the west after 9/11 has actually fuelled burqa wearing in the west .

I'm torn in that it's probably a good thing for women who are being forced to wear them by their partners, but on the other hand I know plenty of bright, happy women who choose to wear headscarves, veils, etc. (our state had a high population of Somali Muslims) and I would stand with them to the death on their right to do so.

Rational argument for wearing the veil is....

you don't need to argue for the right to wear what you want in public. I don't have to justify my choice of attire - why should anyone?

The veil is a Piece of Clothing - nothing more.

does anyone think governments should be able ot ban items of clothing they don't like????

"Rational argument for wearing the veil is...."

The same as a rational argument to wear a short skirt and a boob tube, it's a fashion faux par but it's a woman's choice

Which is....

Saying because it's my choice is not a good enough reason when it causes segregation and ill feeling.

And what is an informed opinion?

Saying because it's my choice is not a good enough reason when it causes segregation and ill feeling.

the veil does not cause ill-feeling, perhaps some people's interpretation of it does - but i don't think you can blame an item for the contents of people's head.

do you want to ban everything that causes ill-feeling? How about starting with Jeggings?

My db bought me back a burka from Afghanistan, and I used it as a teaching aid. I have never felt so smothered and cut off as when I tried it on. I couldn't see out of it and I felt a great sense of relief when I took it off. I can't imagine wanting to wear one, and being forced to wear one would drive me crazy.

You don't comment on the segregation though Eggy?

an informed opinion is an opinion which shows empathy, you don't have to be a muslim or marry one but you do have to understand the religion and understand the way someone feels when they choose to wear one.

A muslim woman wearing a veil has a hidden identity but a target on her back. Everyone knows her religion, a religion that is in the media nearly every day for being extremist, racist, anti-woman blah blah blah. She wears it knowing that people who do not know her believe she is oppressed and delicate with osteoporosis or vitamin d deficiency. You have to know that person before you start declaring that her clothing attire should be banned.