Well done Belgium. Veil banned

[Nuttybear]

I fully support this. Really wish the liberals would put aside there protection of these men and free the women here. I vote for bring the same law here. I despise the veil and all it stands for. I saw a woman trip and fall because she could not see the kerb!!! Her husband/uncle/dad then had to guide her over the next kerb. I saw them again in the supermarket I so wanted to throw eggs at him but it would only make her plight worse. I know a minority want to wear the veil. Well, there are countries that support that decision. I know it might make matter worse for some but there must be a stand to free these women of this 13th century habit. Wearing of the veil is not in the Koran. All for modest dress, if you so wish but, unable to look around your world freely is wrong.

Excuse me Riven, I was responding to giveitago who said Muslim men and women should make the decision on the veil. Another good reason, if there's no such thing as the Muslim community, why that shouldn't happen.

Saadia, I think that's rather a sweeping statement, you can't know why people comply with the dress code at all. It doesn't make life easier or more difficult in some countries: it's just an issue of "it's not done". Which is fine by me. Takes all sorts.

The face-covering does cause problems, of communication and identification. And if it's just "a bit of cloth", as it's been described, as superficial as that, why the great debate? Why the insistence? We can't wear what we want, although we NEARLY can. Not much is proscribed: and only that which would really cause an issue for many people.

Yep, I'm from the dominant culture - albeit a mixed background and I do not find the wearing of a veil offensive if I feel the woman has made that choice.

I'm not muslim.

I doubt very much that any western country lives up to it's feminist ideals. In fact, being a middle aged person bought up in the eighties at a very feminist school, I do wonder where that culture is too.

I'm married to a catholic (I'm not one) - I find aspects of that very very different to my dominant culture, but hey, I cope.

I don't really care about Islam's historical culture, beauty, architecture and altruism. In the here (UK) and now I would support any woman who wants to be facially covered. At the same time I don't want to be covered and that is also my right.

Obviously practicalities to be observed - I don't want my little child to be taught by someone who cannot offer facial expressions. But when he's older and doesn't need the facial expressions, then fine. I don't want to be approached by a police officer where I cannot see their face etc.

Other than that I'm fine with it - in fact a a good few of the nursery mothers are covered - I didn't really notice until all these 'debates'.

I don't find it disrectecful if that's how a woman wants to present herself.

That's you, giveitago : obviously in Belgium and France they feel differently. That is absolutely their cultural right. They might feel differently in the UK too.

I can't imagine why you would support a woman who wants to cover her face, if you deplore other symbols of oppression all too common in the western world. Speaks of double standards to me.

ps if you don't care about Islam's historical culture, beauty, art and architecture you are missing out! here's a link or two:

organic design

blue mosque

note depiction of human figurest

symmetric harmony

excuse the lecture

I haven't seen anyone yet who wears or is "pro" the full veil even say that they can understand why some people in the UK feel uncomfortable with it. Is that really so - can people honestly not understand at all why people raised in teh culture of the UK feel uncomfortable with people who decide to go around with their faces covered? That the only reason for people feeling uncomfortable with this must be anti-islamic feeling - that it can't be as simple as covered face = threat (in our culture) + connotations of oppression of women in other countries? Really?

Would everyone feel equally comfortable if increasing numbers of men in their locality started going around wearing entirely back clothes and balaclava helmets?

"posie there are schools of all sorts of faiths. CofE, RC, Jewish etc. For the more strict religions where it is desired to keep the students separate from other children/adhere to a level of religious observation that would not tie in with the national curriculum, the schools are normally private. "

Is this really the case or is it because there is no/limited public funding for them? Is it because they are 'strict' religions? Really?

Do our publicly funded religious schools take on kids from other cultures because because they are keen to have their kids mix with other children or because they HAVE to as they are subsided by the taxpayer?

What is a more strict religion exactly?

My nieces go to a private religious school because it has great results and certainly not to deliberately seperate them from other kids. I'm not a fan personally but it would be tempting to send ds for their academic results alone.

I don't care what other people wear - I don't choose to wear a face covering and neither do I like to walk around orange with my ample tits hanging out - but if other women want to and it's their choice.

Our publicly funded religious schools do not have to take kids from other religions (which is what I think you mean by kids from other cultures?) unless there are not enough applications from children of the religion of the school. Well there are two sorts of religious schools that are funded, one has to have some "community" places the otehr sort doesn't.

To qualify for funding the school has to teach the national curriculum (I think?) it needs to adhere to certain things anyway.

In our area for eg we have cofe, RC, jewish schools which are state funded and due to heavy ubscription only admit children of that faith.

We also have private schools serving the hasidic jewish community which was what I was mainly thinking of. ie private religious schools are not just muslim.

Interestingly I was just googling and found that one of teh local jewish state funded schools gives over half of timetabled teaching time to religious instruction. It is oversunscribed 2 to 1. Even if it wasn't oversubscribed I can't imagine that many non jewish (and in fact even many non orthodox) people would want to send their children there - that seems quite full-on to me. But each to their own and govt obviously agrees as its a voluntary aided school.

Saadia did say she'd never thought of it. But I agree, ISNT. Maybe I'm interpreting you too far, but I believe if one demands understanding, one must also offer it.

just thought of other obvious reason for private religious secondaries for religions where the children have to be separated by sex - again not peculiar to islam.

My nieces go to one of these private religious schools not because they need to be segregated from the rest of the population, not because they are seperated by sex (they aren't), but because the exam results are damned high.

I would never entertain sending my child there and neither would I entertain sending them to a publicly funded religious school.

But back to the point of what women wear. If they chose to wear it then so be it. I don't DEPLORE women who feel the need to keep their youth and be orange (they are always orange) - I don't have much time for them that's it - different from DEPLORING.

I've met many women wearing a veil, pretty much all since I've been a mum - found them no different from anyone else - I'm just not that scared of them and don't automatically associate it with being downtrodden.

No doubt there are those that are and there are many woman who don't wear the veil who have little influence over their lives.

It would be a sad day if the UK decided to ban facial coverings - and no doubt more people would take it up in defiance anyhow.

so veil is banned but burga thingy is still alowed?

Well then they don't go to one of those private religious schools then.

You asked "Is this really the case or is it because there is no/limited public funding for them? Is it because they are 'strict' religions? Really? "

and the answer in some cases is "yes, there are private religious schools which exist because the children are not to mix with those outside the religion and/or are not to mix sexes and/or the instruction they receive lies outside the criteria for funding and/or the instruction that they receive is immersed totally in that faith"

but you don't seem to like that answer, even though it is true. based on the fact that your nieces go to a religious private school and its not like that.

sorry but that gets a way to ignore a response you don't like and change the subject. you asked, that's the answer. if you think that the religious schools around here are selected because teh parents like the results and you can't imagine it is different anywhere else then you are terribly closed minded.

in fact that's the whole problem on this thread isn't it, people being utterly unwilling to even try to understand the others POV.

I'm going to have to and go to bed.

I personally don't feel that outward symbols of religious affiliation are a problem. In our community we have a lot of Jewish people, nearby are the hasidic jews, we have a strict christian sect who have a form of dress that sets them apart and the women (and girls) have to cover their hair all the time etc etc.

This is not about religious dress for me it is about covering the face. However I do not believe that face covering should be banned (I don't think).

But it makes me feel uncomfortable for the reasons stated above ie cultural mistrust and fear of anyone hiding their appearance and associations with regimes which are v oppressive to women.

I sense we are starting to go around in circles so will leave it there.

Apart from I suppose that all the people saying it is their choice to be fully veiled - well you know that - but i don't know that. Looking at you I have no way of telling if it is your choice or cultural pressure or a specific person insisting it is worn. That is another thing that makes me uncomfortable.

If someone could give me a cast iron guarantee that all the women in teh UK who wear a full veil are doing so out of total free choice, and are genuinely unconcerned about not participating in things that many of us take for granted eg most types of employment, then I would feel a lot better.

But in your view they do.

I'm sure there are some schools which encourage segregation. For this reason I wouldn't apply for a catholic school as going to one wouldn't be representative of ds's community. No?

I'm not a fan of faith schools, and I'm unseasy that we have publicly funded faith schools.

Your point of view is valid to you. My point of view is valid to me. I can sort of understand you but I'm just not a culturally fearful person and, more than that, I do not want the state telling me what I can and cannot wear. In fact I don't want anyone telling me what I should be presenting myself as.

On mn you have the very 'liberal' lot which pisses off the people who not. I'm somewhere in the middle based on my values and experiences to date.

It's not really just a cultural question. Here's a BBC report on a proposal to allow Sharia law in Canada a while back. This was a serious proposal by proponents of Sharia law who objected to having to use secular Canadian law in certain disputes; they obviously completely missed the point of having one set of laws for all the people in a given country.

CagedBird: where does the West stop and the East start? - Erm yes, perplexing point... Morocco would come under East, for it's theology and allegances... But Mahgrib, as it's called in Arabic actually means Western.. Cos it's the most western part of the greater land mass!

mumoverseas: Oh I think that the crucifix HAS been banned from certain places... there was an scuffle at the time, but you know how it goes, the English flag is often felt to be an unhelpful nationalistic display at at times...

"Freedom makes a huge requirement of every human being. With freedom comes responsibility. For the person who is unwilling to grow up, the person who does not want to carry is own weight, this is a frightening prospect." Eleanor Roosevelt

I think that the whole notion of women and the right they have to be as they wish to be is a freedom we must cherish and nurture. not abuse and take for granted.

It is somehow NOT right for a woman to have to, or, perhaps worse to desire to cover her god given face from the public at large, when it is NOT a tradition native to our society. It is disturbing to many, as it greatly detracts from her ability to engage with the people around her. I hate mirrored sunglasses for the same reason. I would ask someone to remove them, but I wouldn't feel that it were possible to ask someone to remove her face covering. A veil covering the hair is fine, it doesn't impede communication, but the full face niqab or burhka does.

It is as inappropriate to our culture to have a face covered as it is for a girl to wear a mini skirt in KSA.

In our culture however we give women the freedom to do as they wish, but IMHO very often this freedom is abused, and it goes too far. We need to reinstate responsibility and accountability. the understanding of cause and effect, of consequences of our choices and deed.

We need to actively discourage the wearing of full faced veils, as it is a step too far for our society, we do find it threatening on some level, but only because it removes all emotion, personality and humanity from the form before us.

Likewise, we need to actively discourage the goddawful crap being produced for our girls and young women. We need to stamp on this ridiculous binge drinking culture, by reinstating the restrictions on alcohol, not by raising prices. The supply needs to be controlled and restricted, not priced out of reach. We all have enough to pay out as it is.

We need to reclaim our town centres, and make the great british evening one that is suitable to all ages, not just teenagers looking for fights.

In short, we need to reinstall responsibility and accountability. We need to be more effective with discipline, and not allow our DC heads to be filled with mumbo jumbo that they will be a glamour model, or a legend on TV or perhaps in a pop band and will make a mint.

Freedom has kind of gone too far in our society, there have to be boundaries. We all know that from our DC, you can't keep saying Yes all the time, or all hell breaks loose.

We've, as a society, been saying Yes for too long and to too much, all hell IS breaking loose.

This Hell is actually what does drive many new members of our society to adopt a knee jerk rejection and subsequent alienation which can actually lead them into circles where hatred and loathing are encouraged to fester.

*disclaimer.. have had wine...

"Your point of view is valid to you. My point of view is valid to me. I can sort of understand you but I'm just not a culturally fearful person and, more than that, I do not want the state telling me what I can and cannot wear. In fact I don't want anyone telling me what I should be presenting myself as."

Excuse me but this is more or less a big pile of nothing.

Your point of view is just that you don't mind and you don't think anyone else should mind. There is no cogent argument in that.

I'm not a culturally fearful person either, I can probably guarantee you that Hissyfit isn't (have you read her posts oh but don't you do that?) or Isnt, or most of the others who've posted. So what's the point in saying that, it doesn't add anything.

You don't want the state telling you what to wear? What are you -- a child? Don't you have the maturity to be part of a wider community, accepting its rules?

"I don't want anyone telling me what I should be presenting myself as". Who's doing that? What are you talking about?

Balderdash.

Of course there is something called the "Muslim community" = Ummah, which transcends national borders.

It is naturally not "uniform" in the sense that no such large community will ever be uniform, but that is neither here nor there.

"Your point of view is valid to you. My point of view is valid to me. I can sort of understand you but I'm just not a culturally fearful person and, more than that, I do not want the state telling me what I can and cannot wear. In fact I don't want anyone telling me what I should be presenting myself as."

What on earth are you on about? It is not my point of view, and I am not culturally fearful. You asked the question about whether there were really any private faith schools that existed because of strict faith reasons rather than because they coudn't get funding. I told you that pretty strict faith schools can get funding and that very strict private faith schools exist and gave you some examples.

You disregard my ressponse and examples entirey because it is "not your point of view" and accuse me of cultural intolerance? Are you actually reading my posts? If you ask a straight question and are given a straight answer it is not on to then so utterly disregard the person who has gone to some effort to give you a response because it does not tie in with your "view" based on one school and a RC one at that (ie one that is not actually very far removed from our culture).

mathanxiety it is already in place that a religious court can deal with people of that reigion on certain matters - there is the Jewish court in London (sorry not sure what its called) but they can act instead of the usual legal process in matters such as divorce AFAIK. Don't know loads about it and don't have time to look now but sure it is all there on google. So there is a precedent for parts of the legal process to be run in accordance with sharia law in teh UK.

Gosh I feel mighty ignorant, I taught (practice) in a Muslimj boys school but it was state funded and whilst all the boys except 2 or 3 were Muslim I had assumed, like other schools, that they would have to let a % of others in...(I was only 19 at the time) so couldn't be a Muslim ONLY school. There is private Catholic school in Bristol but it, again, welcomes others. So we don't have private faith schools that are very segregating.

I think ONLY schools are very worrying.