Well done Belgium. Veil banned

[Nuttybear]

I fully support this. Really wish the liberals would put aside there protection of these men and free the women here. I vote for bring the same law here. I despise the veil and all it stands for. I saw a woman trip and fall because she could not see the kerb!!! Her husband/uncle/dad then had to guide her over the next kerb. I saw them again in the supermarket I so wanted to throw eggs at him but it would only make her plight worse. I know a minority want to wear the veil. Well, there are countries that support that decision. I know it might make matter worse for some but there must be a stand to free these women of this 13th century habit. Wearing of the veil is not in the Koran. All for modest dress, if you so wish but, unable to look around your world freely is wrong.

It's not an attitude that has been stated on this thread (I don't think - it's a very long thread...)

I think it's possible it's mostly just a teenage rebellion thing in the UK in which case the girls will grow up and feel a bit silly about having done it - just as I feel a bit silly about having worn short tight dresses with heels occassionally when I was a teenager.

Just heard on the radio, 'A Muslim only school'....do we have any other X only schools? serious question, only my dss go to a Catholic school but it is not only Catholic.

yes of course, there are also Jewish and Hindu schools.

Jewish only?

Well if that's right, which I don't doubt, I think it's outrageous.

Just listened to radio two and yet again, the defence of the Burkha talked about the hijab.

it may seem outrageous to you but for religious people it is perfectly normal to want their children to learn about and follow their faith - happens all over the world.

We are not 'all over the world'. Honestly this country needs to sort out such practices that can only serve to segregate it's people.

Dh drove past "a language school" this morning, most "students" were far too old for school.

Men were wearing brightly coloured clothes, plenty of designer labels while the women were blobs of black by the doorway. The men were cat calling to the girls on their way to school wearing respectable school uniform and they were being intimidating and rude.

That type of behaviour does nothing to foster the tolerant attitude that muslims demand require.

sorry posieparker, my mistake the year 600ce so suppose that does mean 7th century

Here's another thought to throw into the ring on this subject - when face recognition systems become ubiquitous, wearing a niqab could start to look like rebellious, individualistic behaviour - see below.

some other face concealment techniques are also discussed here:
www.theregister.co.uk/2010/04/22/face_detection_hacking/

Redandgreen, I agree with your point about wanting to hear some discouragement of wearing the full veil or some effort to counterbalance the pro-veil message pedalled by the Wahhabi/ Salafis. Of course, with billions of pounds spent every year by Saudi Arabia promoting this brand of Islam, any alternative views are bound to be hard to hear.

I think that women wearing the veil are being objectified, or choosing to objectify themselves. The objectification is religious rather than sexual.

Noone is banning the hajib, just the covering of a woman's face.

Oh - well can't be bothered to read all of this because it's way too emotive for me.

I don't give a shite what women wear as long as they want to wear it.

There are calls for this country to have a debate about covering the face - I do not want to be asked to debate this if it were to affect what another woman could or couldn't wear. I'd rather it be a muslim debate and as I'm not I wouldn't participate. I don't understand all the issues as they don't affect me.

I have friends (overseas in muslim countries) that despise it and think that UK women who wear them are bonkers. But I also think that there are women who have been politicised by this very debate and choose to wear them. Hell, I want to dress far more modestly due to this 'debate'. But if they feel they want to wear it to make a political statement - then bloody do so - why would I care?

Any more than people cared when I had body piercings at at a time when they were rare (I'm an old bird) - I wanted to do it - so I did it and it was part of my identity. I'm pleased I did.

Better modesty then having to endure the sight of arses hanging out of thongs in micro skirts first thing in the morning when I'm trying to get to work.

Or women who go under the knife - get lip implants and boob implants - they do it under the guise of empowerment (LOL till I'm sick).

I feel that muslim women and men reflect the entire spectrum of society and I'd prefer that they have the debate rather than the state.

that's silly.

Why is it silly?

If a woman wants to wear it why shouldn't she?

Is the state banning an item of attire less oppressive than a man - and I'm not assuming that there's a man behind every face covering?
Why is it silly?

I think silly is women going on pointless diets for the rest of their lives, getting that think on their face with needles, getting orange - but if they want to do it - then go do it.

I think there's an assumption that somehow muslim women are oppressed. Full stop. I don't believe that.

were you the one saying you hadn't read any of the thread?

i can see that now

It is not the case that all forms of attire/lack of it are OK in liberal UK society. There are many forms of dress that you would get arrested if you stepped out of your house in them.

The argument that all other forms of dress are allowed so why is covering the face any different as people can wear whatever they like is not correct.

posie there are schools of all sorts of faiths. CofE, RC, Jewish etc. For the more strict religions where it is desired to keep the students separate from other children/adhere to a level of religious observation that would not tie in with the national curriculum, the schools are normally private. Again, there are many private religious schools, not just muslim.

I'm surprised that you didn't know that TBH, given your interest and qualifications in teh subject. Maybe it's not as widespread outside of London, everyone around here knows this stuff.

MMr that's not an answer.

The fact is that the majority of Muslim women do not wear the face veil, In my case, my understanding is that it is not a requirement but, if a woman freely chose to wear it, I would totally support her because that is her expression of her faith. It is not for me to judge one way or the other.

There varying degrees of obervance and a multiple of interpretations of the teachings in all the main faiths.

OK, I'll repeat myself to save you the bother of reading.

It's disrespectful to the dominant culture, something I believe in quite strongly, having lived many adult years in countries with different cultures. You may disagree -- you may think it's not rude and disrespectful to upset people of the dominant culture, but I doubt it. I'm sure you'd cover up in large parts of Asia out of respect, but correct me if I'm wrong.

It's not oppressive -- if you think it's oppressive being told not to wear something you want to wear, you have led a very blessed life.

If you allow the Muslim community to decide then you are opening the door to a very strange situation where separate communities make their own laws undermining the laws of the country they live in.

Whoever it was said (sorry I don't remember) that the Muslim community should be urging women not to wear the veil, quite right. But the decision lies with the government and always should.

The long list of women's rights in Islam: I know. I have a feminist friend who is a Muslim. But find a country that lives by them? Rather different. You're more likely to find a non-Muslim country that implements those rights.

Also in the Quran (as in the Bible) are stipulations that lower the status of women. I don't know my Quran or my Bible that well but the Quran says outright that men are superior to women. Perhaps the Bible does too. But there we are.

Women who wear it may not be oppressed but it is a symbol of oppression. Even, right now, of hostility, which is hard to deny as it's been spoken about. Why any woman would want to import this symbol of oppression into a country which actually implements that long list of women's rights, I have no idea.

Talk about polarisation. This insistence, this demand, polarises. You wouldn't think from reading what I've written that I "like" Islam, would you? You wouldn't think I have any respect for its Five Pillars, the peaceful faith of millions? For Islam, over any other world religion, apart from Christianity?

I do though. I could wax lyrical (and have done in rl) about its beauty, its art, its architecture, its altruism.

This demand, this lack of respect surrounding the niqab and cultures which dislike and do not want face-covering, is pernicious, and makes enemies of people who don't wish to be hostile, whose natural instinct is to be tolerant.

mmrsceptic you make some interesting points but TBH prior to this debate the issue of whether or not the veil offended the host culture had not even occurred to me.Perhaps because I just took freedom of what one can wear for granted.

In countries where people wear modest dress, most visitors will comply with the dress code because it makes life easier for them.

If veiled women are going about their business without causing problems either to themselves or others then it does seem slighly fascistic to forbid them from wearing it.