Well done Belgium. Veil banned

[Nuttybear]

I fully support this. Really wish the liberals would put aside there protection of these men and free the women here. I vote for bring the same law here. I despise the veil and all it stands for. I saw a woman trip and fall because she could not see the kerb!!! Her husband/uncle/dad then had to guide her over the next kerb. I saw them again in the supermarket I so wanted to throw eggs at him but it would only make her plight worse. I know a minority want to wear the veil. Well, there are countries that support that decision. I know it might make matter worse for some but there must be a stand to free these women of this 13th century habit. Wearing of the veil is not in the Koran. All for modest dress, if you so wish but, unable to look around your world freely is wrong.

We have state surveillance on every corner already. The idea would be to campaign against the number of cameras, not give in by hiding.

The arguments in favour become less and less convincing.
To claim it's a weapon against state surveillance must be a last resort, surely.

I wanted to say earlier, Isnt said something which hit a chord with me and I thought it was a very cogent point. About being unconvinced that every woman wearing a veil does so through choice, about how important that is, and how it is impossible to tell who is forced and who is not.

Another very good reason, certainly something which deserves a response from the liberated Muslim women.

That's the point: it's impossible to tell. That's the point we're making. It undermines the claim of liberation and choice because you can't tell, you can't possibly check.

Just because we may not understand something, does not mean it is wrong.
People should have the right to wear whatever they want and it it us that are judging them as oppressed.
In society we are all judged by appearance.

I don't want to have people checking why women are veiled, I don;t want a ban.

I am trying to expain why seeing women who are fully veiled makes me feel uncomfortable and to try and explain to women who choose to be veiled that teh reason I feel uncomfortable with it isn't because it is an outward sign of religious affiliation, or of a different culture, or stuff like that.

I feel uncomfortable with it for a combination of reasons that when they are put together lead to a gut reaction in me of "I don't like it".

So I am not saying that people should check that women are wearing it from choice. But that when I see a woman wearing it I do not know whether it is by choice. And that is one of teh things that makes me feel uncomfortable. (Along with all the other stuff already mentioned).

There is still seemingly little understanding or acceptance that there could be any possible reason apart from racism/religious hatred that people would fel uncomfortable with this.

Riven I hate to pick you out but your posts seem to me that the reason you like to wear the full veil is basically because you are shy/do not want to engage with people. I can understand that and I understand that you are very religious but the wearing of the veil seems linked into how you are feeling IYSWIM. Would you still wear a full veil if you were out and about and it was only women? I'm just interested because your posts have a certain tone - you seem to want to hide IYSWIM. Not trying to have a go, honest.

I mean if you were't religious would it still feel desirable to you to hide away?

On a more general note, would teh muslim women on here welcome sharia law for certain aspects of their lives, as happens at the moment in parts of the jewish community?

some info about the jewish court i will find some more in case anyone is interested.

would similar be welcome amongst the muslim community?

The converse is true: if the veiled woman does not understand a cultural rejection of face-covering, it doesn't mean that rejection is wrong. But I don't see any attempt at that understanding.

more on the BBC

divorce seems to be the biggie IYSWIM.

I understand why women want to be veiled I think - there are a lot of different reasons on this thread and I understand all of them. I do not reject the idea that a muslim woman might find it desirable to dress like that.

But my comments that some (many) people in the UK are uncomfortable with it and all the reasons I have given are met with a blank "don't get it you must all be anti-islamic".

I don't understand how anyone coudn't understand a single one of the reasons given for being uncomfortable seeing fully veiled women TBH. People may not agree with the reasons, and think they are silly, but to entirely not understand how anyone could have any of those responses? Like to not accept or understand that in this culture being masked has bad associations - I mean that's just a fact, surely.

I mean if someone said to me "it is against the culture in to wear a short skirt" and I just kept saying "no its not. they're just being anti-western" and the person kept trying to exaplin about religion, and cultural norms, and stuff like that, and I just kept saying "no its nothing like that. it is simply because they don't like westerners".

that would be silly wouldn't it?

I mean it is not done in our culture to cover your face. Unless you plan to burgle a house or rob a bank or mug someone. That is how we are here. It is a cultural norm. To not be able to understand that at all is a bit confusing.

ImSoNotTelling, thamks to you, for the first time on a thread on this subject on MN I can see the point of people who would be scared :

""I mean it is not done in our culture to cover your face. Unless you plan to burgle a house or rob a bank or mug someone. That is how we are here. It is a cultural norm. To not be able to understand that at all is a bit confusing.""

I can definitely understand that reason , do not agree with it but do undestand. It makes much more sense to me than the eternal excuse "let's ban it because they must have been forced into it" I constantly hear from people who have never even bothered asking fully veiled women what they actually want.

Yes and I think that it shouldn't be underestimated. People don't actually think that muslim women are on their way to rob a bank, obviously.

But the cumulative effect of all the news reports showing masked villains, terrorists in previous decades with balaclavas, crimewatch with CCTV with masked gangs, creepy films with masked "baddies". Rioters who are there to cause trouble wearing surgical masks, violent football hooligans wrapping scarves around their faces. It all adds up to a very strong cultural idea that there is something not right about covering the face. When a lot of people see someone with their face covered it simply makes them very nervous and their gut reaction is to get away as this means trouble.

In areas where there is a large minority population of a certain type then IME everyone gets used to each other and rubs along reasonably well. So if you live near stamford hill you are not freaked out at the sight of some hasidic jews it becomes normal.

I wonder if, with greater exposure in the UK - if a lot more women wore this dress - whether people would come to see it as normal, or whether the cultural difficulty with covering the face is too powerful.

LMHF very of your wine but thats a whole other thread

ISNT - there is no precedent for Shari'ah courts to be run INSTEAD of the law of the land. The Bet Din deals with kosher certification and religious divorce; but the civil divorce will still have to be obtained. The Bet Din have also specifically stated that they do not wish to, nor would they try to, replace the law of the land. I do not see this attitude coming from some of those who run the Shari'a courts. The law of this country should be the law for everyone here; there cannot be one law for the rest of us and one law for those who use the Shari'a courts.

Gorionine, this point has been made before: Isnt has articulated it with particular power but it has been made before, earlier up the thread by a number of people and certainly before I came on.

It is not, however, an argument for the veil to be more prevalent, any more than it is an argument for short skirts to be more prevalent in the Blue Mosque.

"But my comments that some (many) people in the UK are uncomfortable with it and all the reasons I have given are met with a blank "don't get it you must all be anti-islamic"."

I don't think that's true. There have been many different opinions on the thread. I completely understand why people in the UK are uncomfortable with it. I just don't think that is a reason to have it legally banned. It may be a reason not to wear it though and maybe some muslim women who consider it choose not to wear it on these grounds. I also think it was the unnecessarily caustic views that were branded anti-islamic.

"In areas where there is a large minority population of a certain type then IME everyone gets used to each other and rubs along reasonably well. So if you live near stamford hill you are not freaked out at the sight of some hasidic jews it becomes normal.

I wonder if, with greater exposure in the UK - if a lot more women wore this dress - whether people would come to see it as normal, or whether the cultural difficulty with covering the face is too powerful. "

ISNT I think this is a very salient point. I've always lived in very multi-cultural areas and have grown up seeing people wearing veils. When I was younger I never understood it because I didn't know much about Islam, I might have thought it weird but was never frightened by it. Maybe that has skewed my opinion of live and let live.

Also I'm going to disagree with you Isnt from my own point of view: it's not just about masking having negative connotations, such as crime. It's about openness of communication which is all part of the same cultural norm. Why this analogy of bank robber masks was necessary to get this message through is extremely telling.

The attempts at understanding seem completely one sided.

No, I absolutely reject this idea that we should have more veils so the stupid not-understanders get used to it.

It's a damn good idea we abandoned this idea with colonialism. Not soon enough, but at least we did.

You can understand it and still reject it.

damn good thing I mean of course

The British used to push our cultural norms on other countries until we realised until we were forced to realise, and quite rightly that it was a pretty crappy thing to do.

We resent it now, with the non-aggressive takeover by American customs.

Gorionine I am so suprised that you cannot support respecting another culture, the dominant culture, as we do when we live across Asia, across the Middle East. Not always because we have to, but out of simple acceptance.

"Why this analogy of bank robber masks was necessary to get this message through is extremely telling."

MMR I'm not sure what you mean by this but I think the point did get through before. It just wasn't seen as reason enough to ban it. And that's the problem. This thread has gotten confusing in that banning it is very very different to not liking it.