Well done Belgium. Veil banned

[Nuttybear]

I fully support this. Really wish the liberals would put aside there protection of these men and free the women here. I vote for bring the same law here. I despise the veil and all it stands for. I saw a woman trip and fall because she could not see the kerb!!! Her husband/uncle/dad then had to guide her over the next kerb. I saw them again in the supermarket I so wanted to throw eggs at him but it would only make her plight worse. I know a minority want to wear the veil. Well, there are countries that support that decision. I know it might make matter worse for some but there must be a stand to free these women of this 13th century habit. Wearing of the veil is not in the Koran. All for modest dress, if you so wish but, unable to look around your world freely is wrong.

"Crop tops and spaghetti strap tops are not permissible, culturally, in many many countries. Such clothing deeply offends the locals, even the baring of the upper arms. It's perfectly logical for the west to have their own cultural issues with certain choices of dress. "

lmhf I really do get this point of view actually. But my problem is "The West" (never really understood the term tbh as where does the West stop and the East start? Is it a philosophical observation or a geographical one? Cuba anyone???) anyway, my problem is England, America et al like to take the high moral ground "We're so tolerant, we have a multi-cultural society, we welcome everyone" etc. etc. etc. and then condemn those in the East, Middle East, Cuba (and anyone else who doesn't agree with them). They condemn these other countries as oppressive, intolerant etc etc. Surely to then say, this is our society and we want you to dress like this (even if you do not feel oppressed), that is a cruel irony at best and hypocrisy at worst.

Not really, caged bird. That's rather twisted. That's looking for self-flagellation.

Thank goodness tolerance is part of our dominant culture, unlike in countries where, for example, religious law is in force. Lucky the Muslim women who don't live in those countries. But who, despite that good fortune, and in a rather I'm alright Jack kind of way, would nevertheless like to import some of their more restrictive traditions? While leaving behind the even ghastlier ones?

Do you have a problem with showing respect for a dominant culture? For example, where there are no laws about it -- where it is simply a courtesy? I'm sure you don't.

Well, this is the same. I do consider it disrespectful and I understand Belgium's right to legislate.

I wouldn't go for it here, though I really don't like the niqab at all. I really don't. In the UK, I just wouldn't make allowances, with jobs and so on.

But Belgium is a different sort of place. France too. I understand why it's felt to be deeply, deeply against the grain of that culture.

Sorry mmr I don't understand the self-flaggelation comment.

"Do you have a problem with showing respect for a dominant culture? For example, where there are no laws about it -- where it is simply a courtesy? I'm sure you don't."

Actually no I don't to a certain extent (in terms of in the summer I see most people in vests and the like but I wouldn't wear them myself). The thing is I don't have a problem at all with what other people wear as long as they don't insist I wear the same.

Tbh I really don't know the culture of Belgium and France; could you explain why it is felt so deeply against the grain of that culture?

"I just wouldn't make allowances, with jobs and so on." I think that's a fair point. We've established that the niqab is not essential for a muslim, and due to an employer should be given the right to say, sorry but if I give you a job you can't wear that although you can wear the hijab.

Do you think other countries could be watching the outcome of this closely in order to determine there own stance on it?

Outside a Muslim culture, if a woman wears a face veil through choice insists on wearing it at work and in situations of communication it's an issue of respect. It's disrespectful to the dominant culture. Unless you subscribe to double standards when it comes to travel elsewhere in the world.

If she is not wearing it through choice, it's an issue of oppression. We cannot approve of that.

So ..there's not that much of a defence for it really.

Can I also add, if I went to a country where they, in contrast, forced me to wear the veil, (as it was the dominant culture). I wouldn't stay there as I would find it unjust.

That's the thing though, bar that school assistant (which I thought was rather blah on her part) I haven't heard of women insisting to wear it at work.

No, there aren't, I wonder why?

But in situations of communication, and identification, certainly I consider it disrespectful.

"If they aren't allowed to veil they will stay in the home. truly imprisoned."

That is their issue. Quite ridiculous to think the need to wear a veil, that has no roots in Islam, would make them stay at home. Rather cutting off their nose to spite their face.

"Can I also add, if I went to a country where they, in contrast, forced me to wear the veil, (as it was the dominant culture). I wouldn't stay there as I would find it unjust." Honestly? Because that, in a nutshell, is what some think Muslims who loathe the West should do. And rightly or wrongly there is widespread belief that if you wear a veil you really don't want to be of the UK.

Quite plainly the reason people have an issue with the veil is that it is ONLY for women, many Islamic laws diminish the value of women and this is made mush more transparent in Islamic countries where there is oppression and intolerance on a level that would make Nick Griffin blush. So The West can accuse other countries of oppression because, in the main, they are. Please highlight a moderate and accepting country that we accuse of oppressing it's women/people.

OH MY GOD POSIE I agree with you on something

If muslims "loathe" the west then no I don't think they should live in the west. I don't see why you should go somewhere and live there if you feel that strongly about it. But I'm not going to go all NG and try to hunt them out. I don't think women who wear veils do feel like that. Maybe some of them do, the one's I know don't

Mmr I think in certain situations of communication it will be construed as disrespectful. In terms of identification it depends where. They would have to identify themselves to the police, at airports and do so anyway. I do understand certain issues, banks, post offices, other places where photographic id is required...

Surely there are far worse things you can do in life than wear a veil?

If that's all I have to do to offend our dominant tolerant secular society I think I might just take to wearing one myself.

Why sure -- and there are worse things you can do in India than wear a mini skirt. But yknow. When in Rome

ahhh, my work here is done!!

I really don't like to think of myself as intolerant but my views on the veil really make me examine myself and any prejudice that may be lurking and I honestly think it is the practices of inequality that make this issue so emotive for me.

Tit for tat. Surely the rights of women are what's important. Our rights to wear a veil, miniskirt, trousers, bright colours..... We can't change anything in Saudi or Iran etc but we shouldn't react to oppression with further oppression. Lead by example I say.

I am not oppressed when I choose to respect local cultures, which I've been doing for around half my adult life btw. It's just -- why would I (and my husband) want to offend a lot of men and women of the country we're living in by wearing say too short shorts etc. It's not against the law in, say, India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, most of south east Asia. It's just an respect we have.

My goodness Ninja. Don't you think that's an issue of respect for culture? That's pretty awful. I would hope you do behave appropriately when you travel.

Hi

islam is most crushing to woman, wait a second this is the religion that in the 6 century gave to woman

the right to vote

hold political positions

to work in any career that they choose

to have equal pay for thier work

maternity leave

to choose who to marry and when to marry

the right to education, actually greater emphasis is placed on the education of woman

the right to go to war and fight alongside men

the right to not work if they choose

the right to state benefits, child benefit system was invented by Umar Ibn Al khattab
by the way it was only in 1971 that irish woman where considered capable of having bank accounts in thier own name

the right to own and sell thier own property

the right to all thier earnings a muslim womans husband is not entitled to anything the woman earns

the right deal in thier own business transactions as they wish

oh and of course the muslim is an equal to men in the sight of God one is not better than the other, the quran is very explicit about this, so we are not blamed etc for the sins of eve etc, we dont have periods and give birth to children as a punishment on our souls etc

in all honesty, and thank you for this thread, my veil is my liberation as a woman, so when did feminism start exactly, as every thing feminism achieved I had given to me in the 6 century

but of course how I dress is the pressing issue for society right??????????????????????????????????

exactly puddinmama - some of the most enlightened periods in history have been under Muslim rule. It is just very unfortunate that the people who own the oil have the upper hand right now.

LMHF here is an update for you. DS1, DD1 and I went shopping to our local mall (where both westerners and Saudis shop) this morning.

We counted 12 (as DS calls them, Ninjas) ie fully covered hair and face and two with the black gloves. All the rest were wearing abayas and headscarfs or had scarfs around their neck ready to cover up should mutawah materialise. This was on Monday morning however and I imagine the statistics would probably change drastically on say a Wednesday night (our Friday night).

I used to get annoyed about having to cover up but to be honest it doesn't bother me now. It save the 'what should I wear today' or the 'does my bum look big in this' debate. Black is very slimming for big arses

When I go to Bahrain or Dubai, I still dress modestly, out of respect and out of the wish not to be stared at.

'I think that a lot of people on this thread who do not know (m)any Muslims and have a very superficial understanding of the religion have been really sucked in by some of the interpretations which are dominant at the moment and which have the most funding in the world.

There are many of us Muslim women who feel very blessed to be Muslim and who are not in the slightest bit oppressed by their faith. It is really insulting and ignorant to suggest that we cannot think for ourselves.'

Accepting all of this from Saadia, I still can't understand why there is such a strong defensive attitude on this thread from Muslims about the veil. Surely you'd want to disassociate yourselves from the practices that perpepuate some of the anti-Islam views detailed here? I can believe that most Muslim women in this country are no more 'oppressed' than any other woman, but wearing (or supporting the wearing of) an item of clothing that mimics the repression of so many people elsewhere in the world just seems odd.

Sorry I worded myself really badly and my irony obviously didn't translate to the page.

What I'm trying to say is that if you think you live in a liberal society then that liberty has to apply to all.

There are countries in the world that use religion (of all flavours) to oppress women but banning the veil is not going to address that issue it just adds another level of telling women what they can and can't do.

Many women are proud of their religion and heritage and choose to wear the veil. I just don't get the problem with that?

I am ashamed to say that I avoid threads like this because I don't like arguing, but I have realised that that it is important to stand up and be counted,

I wholeheartedly agree with Ninjacat.

We live in a western democracy where women are accepted to have brains and an ability to decide what they want for themselves, so under no circumstances can I agree that banning any form of dress is acceptable.

puddin....6th Century? wasn't Islam founded in the 7th century?

Blinding.

I've never seen anyone wearing chains or s&m gear in the street. And no, I'm not really supportive of clothes that encourage the objectification of women - I would prefer to see the awful stripper shoes about at the moment (for example) disappear.

Don't think banning anything is the solution, but I would prefer to see a bit more discouragement from the Muslim community. A sort of 'Wearing a veil is not really something supported by modern, equal Islamic communities' position would be far preferable.

There's no way we should need a ban. I hope it just fades away - but that doesn't seem to be the trend.