Well done Belgium. Veil banned

[Nuttybear]

I fully support this. Really wish the liberals would put aside there protection of these men and free the women here. I vote for bring the same law here. I despise the veil and all it stands for. I saw a woman trip and fall because she could not see the kerb!!! Her husband/uncle/dad then had to guide her over the next kerb. I saw them again in the supermarket I so wanted to throw eggs at him but it would only make her plight worse. I know a minority want to wear the veil. Well, there are countries that support that decision. I know it might make matter worse for some but there must be a stand to free these women of this 13th century habit. Wearing of the veil is not in the Koran. All for modest dress, if you so wish but, unable to look around your world freely is wrong.

Also it's a bit of a joke claiming oppression at not being allowed to wear it in public.

Really, it's not oppression. At all. It's not being allowed to wear something. That's it really.

What blessed lives people must lead to consider this oppression.

Alouise: I wonder how many women have converted to Islam without being pressured by a man? Not many I'd like to bet.

Many actually.... I know of many that came to islam on their own thinking.

I considered it initially, funnily enough, but DH was against it! He did NOTHING to encourage it initially and years later he told me he didn't want me to convert.

I do however observe the no pork rule, don't eat it, don't buy it. Otherwise everything else is OK.

mrssceptic, I am agreeing with you... but I can see how you might be confused... sorry, internet is so flat!

I'm in a generally agreeable frame of mind today...

Hmm, better head off to AIBU and restore normal ranting....

mmrsceptic... omg, I'm making a habit of not getting names right... I read you as Mrs Sceptic, not MMR sceptic.... doh! slaps self!

Funny enough, your point about not being allowed to wear something is bang on, and is the part of the same arguement the Egyptian Govt used to stop niqab in hospitals.

They said that if it was someone's belief to wear NOTHING, that it would also be unacceptable for them to come to work naked.

still agreeing with btw MMRscpetic

I take feminism for granted which is why I find religion archaic because it drags women back to their "place".

Alouise, please, never take feminism for granted. Religion predates feminism so it's actually Feminism that can 'drag' women into a fairer civilisation... not the other way around!

"Islam does seem to be the most crushing for women, as an outsider looking in, it has so many inbalances that are echoed in other religions but unlike other religions where that prejudice is only apparent up through the hierarchy(ie Catholic) for Islam it is for the believers as well as the preachers. "

Sorry but this is patent nonsense.

In my community there are two obvius non-islamic religious groups where people are not allowed to mingle with outsiders, the women have to conform to strict forms of dress, punishment for not following the rules is harsh etc etc.

This is by no means just a thing with Islam. It is a feature of most religions at their most fundamental.

This thread was about being fully veiled though - which is (AFAIK) peculiar to some Islamic societies (these days anyway). And the connotations that it has are of some of the most famously repressive regimes in the world at the moment.

But I am sure that there are women being oppressed like billy-o in smaller enclaves of fundamentalism all around teh world.

There are two different issues - one is about religious fundamentalism usually being pretty crap for them women.

The other is about the full veil and should it be banned (ie the thread title) and how it fits in with wider UK society.

Have just found this thread and read with interest and total amazement at some rather sweeping statements made.

I'm catholic, my DH is an athiest.
we live in Saudi and I have to cover up when I go out. I don't wear the burqa but wear an abaya and a headscarf which I only put on when the mutawah (religious police) shout at me to 'cover hair all times'. Islam is not my religion but I have learnt to respect it and cover up. As others have said, 'when in Rome'.

I know several british (ie born in britain white english women with english parents) who have converted to islam through their choice when they were single. They converted because they wanted to, not from some outside pressure (ie a man)
Live and let live

hissy

ooh, mumoverseas, so are there times when you can go about bareheaded? Do you have to be prepared to cover at a moment's notice then?

I didn't know that.

I didn't openly discuss religion while in Egypt, but have to confess to once forgetting myself and discussing a book that I had read about the Big Bang and the origin of the universe. I had totally forgotten about creationism and it's place in Islam....

Had to manufacture a change of subject pretty sharpish....

CAgedbird....pathetic, submissive and in denial. Your husband used religion, the Muslim religion, to try to make you submissive. What is so difficult about that? Perhaps you fail to understand your own message and you are trying to illustrate the positives of being a Muslim by saying how many people got involved to prevent your husband from being extreme. You say about him finding extreme literature...it is just very frightening and had you been a veil wearing extreme Muslim yourself and supported your husband regardless then who knows what may have happened.

It is not a game to me, but you seem to want to want to paint a picture of this woman friendly religion that simply does not exist.

And perhaps if you stop trying to push me to the limits of tolerance by suggesting that I am against Muslims you would understand that I am against the gross prejudice that exists for women in Islam.

As for Islam growing that is just a frightening fact, fucking hell from the Bible belt to Islam....but then that nation has never been known for intelligent masses.
BNP gets new members everyday but it doesn't make it more right.

Fasting, like I said , at least...

Which two non Islamic religions?

As for practised as originally intended, have you read the Qu'ran?

Now I'm hiding the thread.

Riven, do you like myself feel recently that you have to constantly justify your faith choice to people who do not actually want to know because their mind is already made up that "poor Muslim women" have no say at all in anythiong they do? I am seriously considering giving NM a miss from now on. I am getting sick and tired of people who know better why some women can choose to become Muslims than themselves although they have never met them and know nothing about them.

Go to a Mosque, talk to ladies that have converted to Islam and see for yourself if they have been presurised or it they are strong independent women, you might get a few surprises!

I think Islam is prejudiced against women in some ways. Isn't it the case that the Quran rules that two women witnesses are needed in court for every man? Can you confirm that Riven or is it not so?

Unlikely the ban will come here.

I don't really care about covering up if that's what a woman wants to do.

I appreciate that it can be a political statement - but, again, so what? Freedom to express yourself and all that.

yes sure I found it

"And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women."

Ok no expert but it seems the Qu'ran is like the Bible, full of ghastly prejudices against women. So OK you can say no more than Christianity maybe, but it definitely is. And if you're not oppressed Riven it isn't because of Islam, it's because you live in the UK where Sharia law isn't practised.

and, plus, in addition, if you think not being allowed to wear a niquab is more oppressive than your word being worth half that of a man then and again

sorry about the abrasive tone, not necessary at all

LMHF, yes, there are times I go out bareheaded but I always carry a headscarf incase the religious police are around. After nearly 5 years here you get to know where the Mutawah usually hang out and there are one or two malls where you usually find them.
I've now got an abaya with a hood which I just pull on in a hurry when they are around although a few times they've spotted me before I've spotted them (I probably stand out because I'm blond) and I've been yelled at to 'cover hair all times'

I used to be pretty scared of them but I don't get intimidated by them anymore. A few months ago I was in a mall and went into the family section of starbucks (all starbucks and most coffee shops/restaurants have a family section for women and married couples/families and a mens section) In starbucks they have little booths with curtains so once you are in you can have even more privacy (bearing in mind many women here do fully cover up and you often see them lifting their veils to eat or drink)

Anyway, I was in there with my DS then about 110/11 months and I had my abaya on but hood ddown. I was in a cubicle and the curtain was open around 6 inches as I was waiting for my coffee. To my suprise Mutawah came barging in and told me to cover my hair. I was extremely taken aback by this because as far as I was concerned, I was in the family section and they shouldn't even have been there. I pointed this out and he again said 'cover hair'. I then explained to him that in about 2 minutes I was going to take my abaya off, take out my breasts and feed by baby so suggested that he had left by then otherwise he'd see more than my hair! He scarpered pretty quickly. When I told my DH later he couldn't believe he didn't have to collect me from a police station

Riven hope you have fun on the boat and hope the wind doesn't blow your abaya over your head

I can understand the principle of banning in one sense but still don't agree with this as a solution in this case.

The problem with banning is that it may serve to entrench views further, both in 'western' culture and within Islam. It may be seen by some (westerners) as some type of proof that their bigotry, or mistrust of 'foreigners' is justified, or as proof of the 'west's' discrimination against Islam.

At the same time it may make life on a practical level more difficult for individual women.

I think that dialogue is key in helping society to improve the status of women generally (I'm not just talking about Islam). There are great benefits to everyone in society through improving the status of women. The more society realises that, the more things will change. It takes a lot of dedicated work from a lot of dedicated feminists to achieve that level of education among the population though.

Any dialogue needs to be inclsive of women, or perhaps between women alone, initially.
I'm thinking aloud here. Too often women's needs are sacrificed in agreements between men in power.

WLUML is the organisation I was thinking of earlier! Just remembered their site here They are an Islamic women's organisation. - I'm not sure if that link is working. Its www.wluml.org anyway.

Organisations like this may have insights into how cultural stereotypes can shift on a practical level, working with and within communities.

It is right to challenge the practice, but I think the approach needs to be a little more imaginative than simply banning, in this instance.

Its taken me ages to write this so apologies if the conversation has moved in the meantime.

It's the Belgian way. Like language: learn the language(s!) or you can't function there. It's the Belgian culture, so if we're respecting cultures, there you go.

mumoverseas, thanks for the insight, I just thought that you had to be covered all the time 'or else'.

You hear awful stories about the mutawah, and I'm so glad you stood up to them! They FWIW seemingly knew they were in the wrong.

In Egypt there is obviously no family areas or segregated areas except say in hairdressers. I have seen women struggle with the niqab and food. It can't be easy.

LMHF, we are supposed to be covered at all times although it depends on whether it is strictly enforced. I know friends in Dhahran (next to the border with Bahrain) who say it is much more relaxed and one time I was up there I was shocked to see a woman not wearing an abaya, just long trousers and long sleeved. You'd never get away with that in Riyahd. I understand that Jeddah is a bit more relaxed too, but it just depends where the Mutawah are lurking.

The first month DH was here (10 years ago now) he got caned across the back of the legs by mutawah for standing the wrong side of a stall at a cultural event.

Funny old thing though, the mutuwah aren't as brave when they don't have a policeman with them

I did get asked to cover hair once (very politely) by a Saudi prince in a mall (you can tell by their clothes if they are royalty, and of course the bodyguards in suits and sunglasses looking like something from Men in Black)