Well done Belgium. Veil banned

[Nuttybear]

I fully support this. Really wish the liberals would put aside there protection of these men and free the women here. I vote for bring the same law here. I despise the veil and all it stands for. I saw a woman trip and fall because she could not see the kerb!!! Her husband/uncle/dad then had to guide her over the next kerb. I saw them again in the supermarket I so wanted to throw eggs at him but it would only make her plight worse. I know a minority want to wear the veil. Well, there are countries that support that decision. I know it might make matter worse for some but there must be a stand to free these women of this 13th century habit. Wearing of the veil is not in the Koran. All for modest dress, if you so wish but, unable to look around your world freely is wrong.

Yes it was the part "Take a look at British culture, with its media objectification of women, small minded bigots, unnecessary female surgery (face, breast and labia) and white male supremacy. Just who has got double standards! Take a look at what you represent yourself. "

That gave me pause for thought.

It isn't how I perceive our society but as a part of it I am not well placed to see the truth of our lives. I can understand that it is possible that i am unwittingly upholding and propogating white supremacist and bigoted views simply by my existence in this society. i can also understand why that view of our society gives rise to extremism and the desire to change it.

Like I say I do the bare minimum to conform to societies view of what a woman should look like - I have medium length hair and wear a bra for example - and it bothers me that my presence and participation in UK society is assisting in the oppression of women. When I brush my hair before I leave the house, and I unwittingly contributing to the abuse of women in our society? Would it be better of we were all veiled? It's an interesting question.

But women who wear full veils still brush their hair and stuff - surely - as they remove the veil in teh presence of other women and I'm sure will in those situations be as alive to the standards expected in regard to personal presentation and fashion as any unveiled woman. ?

x-posts.

It's complicated isn't it.

I see my reaction to the (misunderstanding) of being accused of sharing teh views of the worst of our society (ie gutted)

in parallel to the muslim women who are being accused by some of sharing the approach of the worst examples of behaviour in "islamic" societies.

But I think I avoid aligning myself with things assocaited with racist and bigoted behaviour

While women who embrace the full veil are actually seeking out to be associated with those things (at least in some cases). For some (not all) it is a statement and done particularly because of the associations that people observing them will make. It is done for maximum visibility and shock value. Why?

Is it like the people who are trying to "reclaim" the union/english flag? Or is it something more complicated.

Kinderella, I am so not an expert either, just spent an awfully long time with literally nothing to do except watch and think, try (and fail) to understand..

"In my opinion all cultures are misogynist to one extent or another and yes, religion does play a very large part in that, but there are a variety of interpretations of religions and not all Muslims share the views that they were being attributed with in the post that inspired me to respond.

I should have made it clear that any aspects of any religion which oppress women, (and most seem to) are unacceptable, but I don't think that should be turned into a diatribe against everyone within a religion, which I felt had happened."

I couldn't agree with you more. The problem is that, for me anyway, if a few members of a group of people bullies or abuses someone, the actual aggressors are only slightly worse than those that stand by and do nothing about it.

By allowing and condoning the oppression and terrorisation of others, the more moderate members of the group, IMHO, are failing society in general. They need to be seen to be doing more to stamp out what anyone with even half a brain knows to be an unfair and utterly outdated way of thinking.

When I see how what was developed to be a peaceful and fair religion is being twisted and bent to subjugate and oppress others, it makes my blood boil, but to say anything would be perceived to judge all, and would only serve to entrench such positions further. The change, however, has to come from within.

Thanks so much for a stimulating and thought provoking chat! Have really enjoyed it, and glad not to have been caught up in any unpleasantness.

Have not read back too far so don't know what has or has not been said, but if it's got personal, then that is a shame.

We really can't be fighting each other, when actually neither side agrees with the actual nature of the conversation; oppression of women.

It's patriarchy that is truly to blame, us calling names and getting catty won't go any way to demolish the regime. So let's play nice and rid this planet of the patriarchal w*nkers, rather than fight each other?

LMHF do you hang out on the feminism topic here at all? It might be somwhere you enjoy

Kinderella: I think in the main women aren't forced to wear the veil per se.

They are conditioned, encouraged into it, with the 'You'll be a good person' You'll go to heaven' comments so it's much more subtle.

I suspect converts do it to 'prove' they are serious about the religion, but it's only my observation from the rantings of the expat fora. (Gawd bless em, it was like competitive islam)

For many I believe it is for some kind of reaction. To kind of test this, I'd often pretend not to see the women in niqab in Egypt, in the loos or in a cafe etc, I'd carry on as if everything was perfectly as usual, equal etc. It was in real terms, but you know what I mean.

Thing is, my lack of a negative or strong reaction bothered them, they wanted me to look at them and have a reaction, it was like they were daring me to bite.

They would behave increasingly more and more bizarrely; staring at me, boring holes in the back of my head, blocking my path eventually, until I would smile normally and say excuse me to pass.

Hardly scientific, but it gave me the impression that they were encouraging extreme reaction. Not too dissimilar to someone perhaps getting a mohawk hairdo and dying it green back in the days of punk.

Trying to be different, by conforming to other less usual groups.

To deny these people of their freedom of expression, I struggle with that, funnily enough I really do.

I hate what it represents too, but to ban it would be 'wrong'. it does however have no place in western society, not from a historical nor a cultural perspective.

I still don't think the niqab/burkha has a place in general islam, it is a tribal dress and not a religious one. By importing bits of tradition into religion and then into society at large it can be manipulated by the few to bear pressure on women in the very name of the religion.

I don't see anything wrong with this, really. The niqab is extraordinary. But then, I've lived in lots of different countries and believe "when in Rome" etc etc. It's respectful to try to fit in and not antagonise the locals.

ISNT, I did not read any of your posts that way. I always like your posts, they are well thought out imo.

Is it for shock value though? I'm surprised to hear that. I would have thought it was either that believed they were obliged to or they chose to for their own reasons. Would it really be for the effect on others? That seems strange. If true perhaps they are seeking to disassociate themselves from those things which do degrade women in our culture. Which we all probably disapprove of. I don't know.

LMHF, I hope we haven't been fighting. I probably just didn't make myself clear. (I'm under constant distraction here with the kids!) I like your posts.

I agree that people shouldn't stand by and do nothing. I suppose its the same old problem; those who have the advantage (generally men) aren't as inclined to change things and those at a disadvantage (women) have less power to do so.

LMHF,

x post.

I would agree about conditioning and also about proving commitment. Really strange about wanting you to comment though. I have never heard of that before.

Fully agree also about not liking what it represents, but not wanting to ban either.

And also about manipulating 'tradition' into religion to control women further (in religions generally). Its all about power really. Whoever has the power creates the 'rules'.

"For many I believe it is for some kind of reaction. To kind of test this, I'd often pretend not to see the women in niqab in Egypt, in the loos or in a cafe etc, I'd carry on as if everything was perfectly as usual, equal etc. It was in real terms, but you know what I mean."

Really? That's interesting. It certainly suggests a bullying mentality and I can see why in these type of circumstances a woman who may not really want to wear the veil feels pressured into wearing it. It sounds pretty nasty actually.

LMHF have you had any experience of any other Islamic countries? If so, did you find similar behaviour amongst the women? Also, how did your dh's family act, and act towards you? Did they expect you to be the little sahw, cooks, cleans, and kisses and the like? Quiet interesting.

My dh went through a phase early on our marriage where (after already getting pregnant out of wedlock) he decided to get back in to his religion and went to the extreme 'Wahabi' side. But it was his mum who kind of took me aside and pointed out that he was expecting too much of me (I wasn't muslim at that point) and that I should be patient with him as he would soon come to see that wasn't true Islam; she also insisted I was firm with him and when he started going on about clothing I wore and the like, to "stand my ground". She knew what clothes I wore and didn't see them as inappropriate. I didn't feel that under pressure because I knew I had her and his sister's support. I wonder then if converts or non islamic wives living in these countries do feel undue pressure then to "fit in" and as you say show their commitment to Islam.

The veil is part of Islam though as the Prophet's wives wore them and they are seen to be like the women we are supposed to emulate. But has never been obligatory even the Prophet's daughter refused to wear it saying her beauty was a gift from God and why should she hide it (paraphrasing). With this said, more Islamic clerics and Imams should be promoting this. I am fully aware of those Wahabiists and the like who absolutely do want to oppress women "women shouldn't be seen and not heard" but there are a number of rising scholars, imams and clerics (especially coming from the west such as Sheik Hamza Yousef who denounce these practices). I think you are right in saying it needs to come from within as when it doesn't it is immediately seen as "the west attack Islams" and it won't be acted upon or seen as something beneficial. I also just don't think banning it is right. It isn't just about Islamic rights it's about civil rights also.

Kinderella and LMHF I really enjoyed reading the discussion you were both having it really interesting and gave an excellently different perspective.

The prophets wives only wore a veil following a man being inappropriate toward one of his wives, I forget which, then he had the 'revelation' that they should be covered. Prior to that he had asked people to only speak to his wives through a 'curtain', I am guessing that they were not allowed out of the house to achieve this. It is also a practice that came from Persian and Byzantium customs, so again not really a religious thing. Certainly a case of women being punished for the attentions of men.

What struck me when I first studied Islam is the absolute ownership of women by their fathers and husbands, it was always what men must do with their wives and daughters and not what the women should do.

Cagedbird's post says it all really that her husband had particular expectations and perhaps if she had been a weaker woman she would now be veiled. The fact that she needed his mother's words in order to endorse her own feelings is really foreign to me. If my DH is an arse(which he often is) I don't need his mother taking me aside to tell me it's okay to think that.

Islam does seem to be the most crushing for women, as an outsider looking in, it has so many inbalances that are echoed in other religions but unlike other religions where that prejudice is only apparent up through the hierarchy(ie Catholic) for Islam it is for the believers as well as the preachers.

Posie, you are misunderstanding what I wrote and making assumptions. Has nothing to do with if I were a weaker woman otherwise I would have said that. I didn't need "his mother's words in order to endorse [my] own feelings" I in fact wanted a divorce - which is when his mother stepped in and explained Islam (which i had been foreign to) to me and to him also. My point was that she was a muslim woman and a strong one also, who knew her son was doing something incorrectly and stepped in to help his wife rather than keeping out or adding pressure.

My post was in response to something lmhf said regarding the bullying mentality of the women in the islamic country that she lived.

Also Posie, how many women enjoy help and advice from mil's when their husband is doing something wrong. What is the problem with that. Are you saying that if your dh was an arse and his dm backed you up you wouldn't feel more at ease?

"So again not really a religious thing" - Also because something was used before and elsewhere doesn't mean that it is exclusive to that land/faith/culture. Family is part of Islam but there were families before in all parts of the world. It is part of Islam but no it isn't a requirement.

You might feel like Islam is crushing to women and that's your choice, I as a Muslim don't feel like Islam (as opposed to various cultural practices) is like that that and it's my choice.

No, it wouldn't make me feel anything if my MIL said a word about her sons behaviour to me, I would expect her to say something to him only....and then it would be his upbringing that would lead him to have such backward ideas like your husband. It beggars belief that you even write such things about being married to a Muslim who tried to go back to his religion in that way and then you still converted. Sounds really submissive and if you were my dd I would question your motives. But then I question any adult of sound mind converting to any religion and in particular a religion that stands above the rest when it comes to oppressing women. I can only imagine you were part of a religion before and have switched allegiance.

Whereby all religions become a mockery is when they adopt non religious practices and make them religious, Christmas, Easter, veil wearing etc...even the fasting comes from at the very least The Bible.

The hypocracy is astounding! You became pregnant out of wedlock so clearly he wasn't playing by the rules then he had the temerity to push you toward the most extreme end of the scale.

Kinderella, no I've not been fighting with you, I've really enjoyed the posting on here. You have helped me see things slightly differently, and this conversation has helped me clarify my thinking.

Posie, I get what you are saying and I do understand your recent posts. I understand your anger and rejection of all of the above. As a disclaimer, I have not read back further, I am judging from these current posts.

What is happening to women in cultures such as these is abominable, it is however societal. The same is expected of Coptic women in Egypt for example, as is expected of their muslim 'sisters'

Christian husbands will also moan if they are asked to do anything, and most of them won't life a finger to help their wives either.

Religion is being USED as a weapon to keep the women in 'their place'

Blame it on society/culture, not theology.

Perhaps I could be enlightened as to why countries where the populous belief is non Christian seem to be far less forward thinking when it comes to women?

Mrssceptic Interesting post, "I don't see anything wrong with this, really. The niqab is extraordinary. But then, I've lived in lots of different countries and believe "when in Rome" etc etc. It's respectful to try to fit in and not antagonise the locals."

Well When in Rome works for the UK too, The niqab is as compatible with our society as a mow cut top is in KSA.

I would cover out of respect, in the Deep South and rural parts of egypt, in the more conservative areas of Alexandria.... where we first lived, I was not allowed to sit out on balcony, I had to cover my hair even to put the washing out. Was really best not to be seen tbh. This IS how all women in that area were expected to behave.

When I got home from having very serious MC, and was told to be in bed, I still had to hang the washing out the next day on the balcony, literally squatting down to prevent myself from fainting from lack of blood pressure. the alternative, getting DH to do it, would have been noticed and would have gone around the neighbourhood... [sad little lives emoticon]

Alouise, yes it is hypocritical, many men are! I think the 'guilt' aspect of the religion is very strong, cos it does seem to do this.

Catholicism too does this. DH used to have a catholic GF, she used to feel compelled to go to confession cos she was sleeping with a muslim. The priest used to do a massive sharp intake of breath and get her to do her hail mary's or whatever, but she still carried on sleeping with him, and carried on confessing!

gah, mow cut top? LOW cut top.... too wet to mow the lawn today...

CagedBird, Wow, as strong as you are and able to stand up for yourself, thank goodness for your MIL and SIL. It would have been so much harder for you all to reach a resolution had they been on HIS side as it were!

I have been to Morroco, but for a much shorter stint, and wasn't married either. They don't cover so much, and I didn't see any full face veils.

I did go out with a female guide shopping a few times and she was veiled, but still attracted filthy comments, which utterly shocked me.

Yes, the 'taunting' from the women with the niqabs was really noticable, my british friend noticed it the first time. It was really quite funny, incredulously funny.

DH family - all dead. So i was on my own out there. He has uncles, but tbh, everyone that came near us had some kind of 'angle' would do things for me then brag about it to DH and hold their hands out for cash. So one by one, they all ended up being kept away from us.

I was expected to do it all, and not being a very strong cook before I got there, and with a 6mo baby, it was like being thrown in at the very deepest end.... Everything had to be cooked from scratch - you want tomato sauce... get chopping onions and tomatos, no luxuries like tinned tomatos, no frozen anything... everything from scratch, and had to be ready for DH to come home to.

OK so it was something for me to do, but it was hellish.

When we moved to the apartment on the corniche, it was better, cos we could go to the hypermarket and get imported and frozen foods. In the old place there was no way we could go out to the supermarket and come back with what would represent £1000 of shopping... The gossip mongers would have had a field day [sad little lives emoticon, again]

FOR FUCK SAKE - do I have to write a 30000 word thesis to get my point across.

"It beggars belief that you even write such things about being married to a Muslim who tried to go back to his religion in that way and then you still converted. Sounds really submissive and if you were my dd I would question your motives"

Now you seem to be deliberately misinterpreting everything I say just to get some ignorant message across. Maybe it's a game to you. I said he went there, past tense. He dabbled with it and was put right by friends and family and an imam from his country of birth came to speak to him (at his mother's request). He then came back to moderate Islam and I converted afterwards. I should also add, I didn't speak to my husband about converting because I didn't want him to pressure me into it. I wanted to know it was my choice. God forbid a muslim woman do something out of her own choice hey posie? tbf from some of your other posts I wouldn't be banding submissive around either. If someone does something you don't like they're stupid right? Yep got that.

I added that we were pregnant out of marriage to prove the point of hypocrisy and guilt (it wasn't a freudian slip, it was very deliberate). Intended to get across that his delve into the more extreme version of Islam had an awful lot to do with guilt. It was also mis-education. He got on the web and to his local mosque to find out information and there is a mass of saudi/extremist/wahabiist literature. Also we lived in a pakistani comunity (neither of us are pakistani) but they involve a lot of cultural practices which are not legit.

He also became slightly radicalised as he felt the media were attacking Islam. Later on he also realised that many of the muslims in the spotlight weren't doing Islam any favours either (flag/effigy burning, mad clerics/imams etc).

seriously, read the post in the way it was intended or don't comment. You're pathetic.

I took women's rights for granted before all of this, I never considered feminism. I thought it was for lentil weavers..

Living like I have done, I have totally changed my thinking, there is not a day that goes past that I don't give thanks to God for the women (and men) that fought so hard so that we can work, earn supposedly equal wages, own property, vote and be heard in court.

I think that the womens rights movements in the UK and the US has given western women rights that other societies don't have.

I also believe, as odd as it sounds, that without WW2, women would not 'enjoy' the equality they do today.

My own mother was told off by my father's relatives though as late as the 70s, when she said she was going to get a job. You are taking work away from a MAN they all said.. :-0 She stuck to her guns though!

I feel eminently underqualified to join the feminism thread, but perhaps I ought to go and lurk for a while...

I take feminism for granted which is why I find religion archaic because it drags women back to their "place".

I wonder how many women have converted to Islam without being pressured by a man? Not many I'd like to bet.

Hissyfit I'm thinking you are agreeing? Hope so!

Niqab doesn't fit in in the UK, tis not respectful to cover up your face like that when you know it can upset people, just like it's not respectful for me to kiss my husband in public in some countries, or wear a spaghetti top.

Some countries, there's a law, some countries, it's a courtesy thing. But it seems along the right lines to me. Feels hostile to know that you're upsetting people and not care.

Fasting pre-dates Christianity too posie.

Records of it are to be found in pharonic religion too, but I'm willing to bet even it pre-dates that.

I'm not going to get dragged into this, but posie it's everyone's prerogative to believe as they wish, berating someone's choice to convert to a religion, which when practised as originally intended is no threat to either male or female rights, is simply not on. It's counter productive to all of us. If anything, CB has a chance to enlighten those around her if she sees injustice etc, or to inform those of us on the outside.

I have no idea of authors, but I recall hearing that some saudi women have written books that discuss the erosion of women's rights in islam, and say that patriarchy perpetrated in the name of the religion has robbed them of the equality they once enjoyed at the beginning.