Well done Belgium. Veil banned

[Nuttybear]

I fully support this. Really wish the liberals would put aside there protection of these men and free the women here. I vote for bring the same law here. I despise the veil and all it stands for. I saw a woman trip and fall because she could not see the kerb!!! Her husband/uncle/dad then had to guide her over the next kerb. I saw them again in the supermarket I so wanted to throw eggs at him but it would only make her plight worse. I know a minority want to wear the veil. Well, there are countries that support that decision. I know it might make matter worse for some but there must be a stand to free these women of this 13th century habit. Wearing of the veil is not in the Koran. All for modest dress, if you so wish but, unable to look around your world freely is wrong.

xenophobia, that is

Hissyfit - The niqab and beard are not banned in Egypt because they are considered intimidating, it's way, way more political (and classist) then that, so don't misrepresent the situation.

Alouseig - Your comments are utterly disgusting, but you know that already.

I never said they were banned, but those that do wear the niqab and DH the beard etc have complained about the treatment they get at the hands of the Govt.

Egypt has decreed that nurses in state hospitals (rightly, for hygiene) should not wear the niqab.

I'll try and find the link in Egypt Today here it is

Gothanne, Classist, how so? Genuinely interested to hear why you say that particularly?

Rindercella:

"If you're wearing a veil you're not under the same pressure to dress attractively/ wear make up/ be judged/harassed on your looks. "

Sorry, but that is not totally true. Harrassment of women in countries such as Egypt are a well known, well documented, but utterly unaddressed everyday issue.

bbc article here

Mona Eltahawy's Blog also gives an interesting perspective here

I have to agree with Rindacellas post that the abuse is coming from a partiarchal system and not an islamic system per se.

Where the boundaries blur, is that there are some in Islam that are distinctly patriarchal, and USE islam as the reasoning behind why the little women need to do as they are told.

Many many men enjoy this charmed existence where their only contribution to the family are in a semen deposit and the weekly wage. Otherwise they can rant and rave, scream and shout and hit and kick until they get what they want. It happens to mothers, daughters, sisters, cousins and if she leaves, the first reaction by the father of the 'bride' is to take her right back to her home.

Taking all religion out of the picture when looking at the societal life in one of these countries, the generations of men behaving literally as they wish, with very poor education to teach girls anything else, the system self perpetuates. I looked at it as a kind of Stockhold Syndrome..

Why, when all they have to do is look around them, and see that women elsewhere don't live like that; they have choices and freedom and respect. But when outside influences, media, TV, internet tries to show anything to suggest that women don't all live like that, out come the hard faced imams and they preach that society is all going to hell, and women behaving badly is causing natural disasters. Women over there are in the main so deeply entrenched, that they believe it all, and look toward the West as evil and dangerous.

I do think western society does have it's unacceptable extremes; drunken behaviour, violence, objectification of women.

A restoration of values, pride and responsibility are what's needed to bring it back into line, not trying to oppress half the population through religion.

We need a new broom in Islam, one that will restore the rights of women, that will foster integration, inclusiveness and tolerance.

Islam itself needs to silence those that practice harm, abuse and oppression in the name of the religion.

Excellent posts, LittleMiss - I agree wholeheartedly with all you say.

LMHF -Egypt as you must know, is a class obsessed society. Traditionally niqab and galabeya are viewed as what country folk or the baladi wear, rather then the urban elite. If you looked inside the Egyptian parliament, you wouldn't find anyone not wearing a suit.

So people are often barred for being 'low class' rather then strictly on dress grounds.
There is also the fact that the government is petrified of the MB seizing power and would like to clamp down on overt displays of religiousity.

I get frustrated with these conversations because they have such a one dimension view of Muslims. Islam is not the only show in town In Egypt Pan Arabism, post colonialism, regional politics etc all heavily influence society.

LMHF -Egypt as you must know, is a class obsessed society. Traditionally niqab and galabeya are viewed as what country folk or the baladi wear, rather then the urban elite. If you looked inside the Egyptian parliament, you wouldn't find anyone not wearing a suit.

So people are often barred for being 'low class' rather then strictly on dress grounds.
There is also the fact that the government is petrified of the MB seizing power and would like to clamp down on overt displays of religiousity.

I get frustrated with these conversations because they have such a one dimension view of Muslims. Islam is not the only show in town In Egypt Pan Arabism, post colonialism, regional politics etc all heavily influence society.

LMHF, its Kinderella.

KT: "If you're wearing a veil you're not under the same pressure to dress attractively/ wear make up/ be judged/harassed on your looks. "

LMHF: "Sorry, but that is not totally true. Harrassment of women in countries such as Egypt are a well known, well documented, but utterly unaddressed everyday issue."

I have no doubt women are harassed everywhere that patriarchy exists. The only way to prevent that is to get rid of the patriarchy. That is not what I'm referring to.

My point is that women may choose to wear the veil so they personally don't feel the pressure they would otherwise feel in our society to dress/ wear make-up, feel judged on looks.

Nothing they (or we) can do about sexual harassment except get rid of the patriarchy as I've said.

Littlemisshissyfit I enjoyed reading your post, thoughtful and in many parts very very true especially

"the abuse is coming from a partiarchal system and not an islamic system per se.

Where the boundaries blur, is that there are some in Islam that are distinctly patriarchal, and USE islam as the reasoning behind why the little women need to do as they are told."

Oops sorry Kinderella

Hmm, perhaps you have a point, I've not discussed the veil issue with converts in this specific regard. Obviously those that are borne into it don't question it any more than a western boy would not question following his fathers religion or even football team for that matter, it's what his or her tribe do and what he/she are taught to do.

The impression I got from those women that have taken up the veil following religious conversion is that it is a stage in islam that they prepare for.

First they inform themselves, take the decision to believe, convert and then take up the veil. AFAIK, they continue to study and cover further as and when they are ready to do so.

I didn't for a second think that not wishing to dress for show/others/feel judged on looked at would have come into it...

Are women somehow hiding from the society at large then, or are they rejecting it? Looking at it from that perspective, they certainly could be viewed as not wishing to participate.

Thinking 'aloud' as it were,

Will ponder that one! Thanks!

Of course my point of pressure upon muslim women still holds in that the patriarchal system around them both familial and societal dictates that to appear to be a good person they must be religious, the more obviously, visibly religious the 'better' they are.

Harrassment of women still exists in these countries and it is driving women to stay home, not to go out of the house. It's only a hop and a skip to them having to be chaperoned on all forays out of the home.

How on earth can women stop religion being the stick to be beaten into submission by?

If they stand up and say that this is not fair, they are accused of being a non-believer... Surely whatever they do, they can't win?

Gosh interesting.

I have had no personal direct experience before of talking with people who despise society in Britain so much, and really hate it. It is quite an education to try and see why people hold these views.

I am very interested in the idea that as a woman I would be freer in a country where it was de rigeur (the law) for women to be fully veiled. I instinctively feel that i would be less free, but maybe not? i was under the impression that in places where women had to be veiled that women had less rights - ownership of property, working, all that sort of stuff. Is that wrong?

I was also not aware that there were Isamic countries where women suffer less rape harrassment etc than in the UK. What are the countries and what can we learn from them in order to try and improve matters for women in teh UK?

Can I point out at this juncture (again) that I don't wear high heels, or wear makeup, or style my hair, and I have a good job and am treated with respect by the people I know and people I meet. There seems to be this very jaded view coming out again and again. I also don't know anyone who has had plastic surgery (male or female).

When I've seen fully veiled women in Harrods you often see very full-on eye makeup, a gold designer sandal sneaking out. I don't think that even wearing the veil completely renders all women immune to pressure to conform in certain ways. Maybe the burqa does that more?

LMHS, I really love your posts here.

I am of the opinion that by hiding the face or the hair or covering up the body completely, it almost becomes the forbidden fruit -- the more you try to put it out of sight the less it goes out of mind?

I have to say I'm struggling a bit with the idea that I am a white supremacist, and bigoted and full of hate. I will try and find a way to process that.

Again, maybe there are other countries we can look to where there aren't problems with the population (being bigoted etc) - where are they and what do they do differently? How can the UK be better?

It's interesting to have these accusations levelled, and I suppose feels much the same as being a muslim woman accused of condoning some of the harsh Islamic regimes around the world. The fact is that some of the people in teh UK are racist/other ist/wankers. As a society though we have outlawed hate crimes, and so on. It depresses me that we are still viewed as a nation, man, woman and child, of bigots.

It has been said, that it's no surprise that people become radicalised. If they live in the UK, with things as they are.

It's a view of this country that I don't find borne out in my day to day life, but quite a few people on here view it that way, so what can we do? What would make the people, who are sickened by our cuture as it is, happy?

Cagedbird, I assume you are talking to me about the BNP. Should you make the accusation again I will report you. I find it very offensive and completely unfounded. I loathe the veil and find 'orgainised religion' and faith in any God quite laughable as a concept but do not have contempt for those that do. I understand that some people need to seek comfort and answers from something and God may as well be it.

And I find you 'one of the brainwashed' and incapable of being objective about the veil, unfaltering in the face of a first hand account, which you disagree with (wtf?). As a follower of Islam [insert any main religion) I don't expect you to be open minded or able to see a different side and I guess I do think the little 'anti-Islam' or 'racist' card to be played, because you think it will stifle me.

LOL GothAnne, such a good post you had to say it twice!

I can understand the nervousness of the Govt when it comes to MB and other vociferously strong and extremist groups, as it was the extremists that did away with Sadat.

Trouble is, if extremism is allowed to get a hold, in a country of 80m people, with the influence it has on arabic culture through films, music and telly, it could have a devastating effect globally.

Mind you, with that particular regime, anything that constitutes a threat to the current 'monarchy' is suppressed and stamped upon.

IMHO over the past 20+ years, standards in education have been allowed to fall to a shockingly low level. What are the literacy figures there these days? 70% illiteracy or there abouts?

If a population is dumbed down, international contact priced beyond the aspirations of the many, and foreign travel complicated by needless red tape, people are kept so busy just trying to scratch a living they don't pay attention to politics, to how long the King has been on the throne for, or the record on Human Rights etc.

In the absence of education, Religion rushes in to fill that void with their often intolerant Friday rants over loud speakers to anyone who can listen. As the listeners often have no way of countering those with religious agendas so go along with it.

Some of the Friday speeches I used to hear scared the living daylights out of me, calling for blood, for jihad and against foreigners and kaffirs...

Islam may not be the only show in town, but it's the one that shouts the loudest and the one that gets heard and drummed into the population more than any other.

Pan-arabism may all be well and good, but on street level, Egyptians are, how can I put it delicately, erm, not entirely blessed with selflessness or humility..

IME It's a case of the other 'Arab' countries trying to align themselves more with Egypt rather than the other way around.

Again, any links with colonialism tends to have a dim view taken of them. Perhaps understandably so, given the history.

On balance however, to the outsider observing them, it seems to manifest in them 'throwing the baby out with the bath water' mostly. Rejection of former colonies ideas for what they represent, rather than looking at the ideas and ways of doing things to see if they might actually work.

The way that a Western Man lives - to many of them - would be seen as a weak man, as one who doesn't wear the trousers, who is a sissy for deigning to change his DC nappy, for even playing with them in public. My own DH recently flipped a lid about the fact that I'd managed to get him to get into the routine of making the bed....

I'm referring to flipping the flipping duvet here, not flaming hospital corners and bouncing pennies at 0600 hrs...

I get "I have a bad deal" thrown at me, "The women of my country do everything, cooking, cleaning, children, and anything I would like on call, 24 hours a day." I don't need to do a thing, everything is done for me, my grooming, massaging, she dances for me... I told him he's been watching too many movies, I've asked around and they don't all do that....

I chuck his bad deal back at him, with frigging bells on

Oppression is bred into the men there, it takes a strong man, one that is raised to be confident in himself, to appreciate and admire females. How can an oppressed woman create a son that is strong enough to buck the trend?

math I am of the opinion that by hiding the face or the hair or covering up the body completely, it almost becomes the forbidden fruit -- the more you try to put it out of sight the less it goes out of mind?

Absolutely. They get harassed anyway so cover more and more and more. The harassment carries on.. what then?

It's not religious, it's criminal.

FWIW I saw it in India too. Crowds of men gawking and photographing the tourist women. Long time ago though, it may have changed now.

By making it a taboo, it heightens interest.

As I've said, I do think we have gone too far in this country though when it comes to public decency and behaviour.

"Cagedbird, I assume you are talking to me about the BNP. Should you make the accusation again I will report you."

Feeling a bit left out hun, you do like making assumptions don't you. Oh do be quiet Posie, report me if you wish, you have been rude, ignorant and disrespectful and it has not only been me who has mentioned it. You have also made very personal attacks on me (more than once)and I have chosen not to retaliate. so do grow up, this isn't high school.

LMHF you are very eloquent

"hun" I feel I don't need to say anymore....pmsl

ISNT, I'm not sure if you're referring to my post but if so:

I don't think it could be logically argued that women are freer where they have to be veiled by law. (My point was to suggest that it might be possible for some women here to choose to be veiled for a variety of reasons.)

It was in response to a particularly vehement post on Islam. I wanted to point out that here in the 'enlightened' west women don't have it so great either. It was in response to a particular post though which seemed excessive.

Certainly any dictation to a woman about how she must dress is oppressive. And yes, anywhere this happens I would take a bet that women's rights are curtailed in other ways too.

In my opinion all cultures are misogynist to one extent or another and yes, religion does play a very large part in that, but there are a variety of interpretations of religions and not all Muslims share the views that they were being attributed with in the post that inspired me to respond.

I should have made it clear that any aspects of any religion which oppress women, (and most seem to) are unacceptable, but I don't think that should be turned into a diatribe against everyone within a religion, which I felt had happened.

The oppressive practices or views should always be challenged. That is not the same thing as inspiring hatred against all those who practice a particular religion, who are by no means a homogenous group (which is how the post read).

I wonder which religion will be the first to actually 'prove' the existence of their God(s)

Until then it's purely academic.

LMHS, imo the next step after covering up completely is probably already happening in places like Afghanistan -- acid attacks on girls going to school, schools for girls burned down.

LMHF,

You may well be right about why and how most Muslim women decide to take the veil. I can't claim to be an expert. I just wanted to point out that it may be a bit short sighted to assume that all women who wear it are forced to against their will. I imagine many have little real choice. Not sure giving them no choice to wear it is a good thing though.

I think there are some Muslim feminist organisations which do try to give women an alternative interpretation of Islam. (I don't remember the names though.) I'm sure its not easy though. It would be very difficult in any religion to challenge what may have become the status quo.

I hope I didn't come across as saying we're all bigots ISNT. (It was just a few posts that made us seem like that, iyswim).