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Well done Belgium. Veil banned

1000 replies

Nuttybear · 22/04/2010 09:28

I fully support this. Really wish the liberals would put aside there protection of these men and free the women here. I vote for bring the same law here. I despise the veil and all it stands for. I saw a woman trip and fall because she could not see the kerb!!! Her husband/uncle/dad then had to guide her over the next kerb. I saw them again in the supermarket I so wanted to throw eggs at him but it would only make her plight worse. I know a minority want to wear the veil. Well, there are countries that support that decision. I know it might make matter worse for some but there must be a stand to free these women of this 13th century habit. Wearing of the veil is not in the Koran. All for modest dress, if you so wish but, unable to look around your world freely is wrong.

OP posts:
babymutha · 24/04/2010 00:43

Aloise - have you been at the sherry luv?

puddinmama · 24/04/2010 00:47

oh dear its all gone to pot really hasn't

Alouiseg this is my country I was born and raised here, its not my 'host' country, am part and fabric of this place like it or not.

posieparker · 24/04/2010 07:44

Any person has the right by their actions or attire to alienate themselves from their society, Muslims who wear a veil do it under the guise of religion. It is still anti social and unacceptable, whether it's cultural or religious. Most religions require these sorts of displays and submissions only from people in a religious order of some kind, Islam seems to want this from it's women.

cory · 24/04/2010 09:27

Alouiseg, a lot of muslims were born in this country; a fair few were born of Anglo-Saxon stock, if it comes to that. 'Host country' would seem a bit of a bizarre word to apply to them. Islam is a religion, not a sign that you were dumped here 5 minutes ago from the planet Mars.

Posieparker, many religions demand some sort of bodily display or submission from lay people: male Jews have to be circumcised, male Sikhs have to wear turbans. Why is wearing a veil more alienating than wearing a turban? Or is it because these people are women that we think we have a right to dictate to them for their own good?

ImSoNotTelling · 24/04/2010 09:35

Just a really quick post as am going out but was thinking about this in the shower.

Also haven't caught up with all posts sorry.

it occurred to me that if you went up to a goth and said that some people found their look intimidating, that they associated it with s&m, and vampirism, and satanism, then the goth would either say: "good, that is the desired effect"; or more likely, "that's silly, I am just a computer programmer and no harm to anyone, but I can understand why some people might feel like that".

Ditto any of the other extreme forms of dress that have been mentioned on the thread.

It occured to me that women on this thread have tried to expain why seeing a fully veiled woman makes them feel uncomfortable. When they see a woman in this dress they think of the taliban, of other brutal and oppressive regimes, of the worst practices carried out around the world in the name of Islam, forced marriage of young girls, rape and beatings and so on. Yet when we all say "this form of dress makes us feel uncomfortable" we are told we are at best ridiculous, and at worst anti-islam.

I can't think of a time in the thread (although I haven't reread it) that anyone who wears the veil has said they can understand. Why is that? Instead ridiculous comparisons are made - like to surgica masks - to try and show how stupid we are. A goth wouldn't sit there with their clothes, facial piercings, makeup etc and say "but loads of people have black hair, I don't undertsand".

Another point is this thing about UK/western culture and masks. When you make a TV program or film and you want a character to be really scary you cover their face. There are too many examples to list and I don't want anyone saying "so you think a muslim woman is like xyz". My point is that we have an enormously strong cultural idea that face covered = scary/up to no good/criminal. And that is a gut reaction, combined with the assocaition with these terrible regimes, that makes people feel uncomfortable. Surely that is understandable?

CoteDAzur · 24/04/2010 09:35

"Why is wearing a veil more alienating than wearing a turban?"

A Sikh man doesn't wear the turban because he believes he is so irresistibly attractive that he should be hidden away from view lest social order is threatened, and so he wants to repel the eyes of half of the human population. That is why.

ImSoNotTelling · 24/04/2010 09:45

wearing a full veil is more intimidating than wearing a turban because the face is covered.

in this country people who are wearing masks for whatever reason aways take them off when they come into contact with others or need to communicate. a lathe worker will switch the machine off and lower the mask. a motorcyclist removes his helmet or just pushes it to the top of his head when he dismounts. the ones who don't, know they are defying convention.

it is nothing to do with being women. it is a double whammy of being masked, and the associations worldwide of this particular mask.

ImSoNotTelling · 24/04/2010 09:46

really must go out now will be back later

CoteDAzur · 24/04/2010 09:50

Alouiseg - You are an idiot. I haven't even believed in God for a single day in my life, let alone follow any organized religion. You don't have to be one of the "believers" to learn the facts about a religion.

The fact here is that FGM is not part of Islam, but a cultural practice that predates the religion. Anyone with half a mind would see that only a small part of the billion Muslims in the world practices FGM and those are heavily criticized.

The point I was trying to make was that the hadith are not an essential part of Islam, they are not trusted like the Quran, and that the vast majority of Muslims don't try to follow them. Example: Loads of Muslim men have never heard of "don't wear gold" and vast majority of Muslim women have not had FGM.

No matter how many times I repeat this, you clearly lack the intellectual capacity to understand what you are told, especially where it contradicts your prejudices so here, have a

mumblechum · 24/04/2010 10:31

ImSoNotTelling tells it (ironically) exactly as I see it.

takethatlady · 24/04/2010 10:52

I raised the problematic view of British history Alouiseg has, and her false claims that white Christians are the 'hosts' of this country yesterday, but instead of answering she and posieparker drove me off the thread with a personal attack. There are many other people I disagree with on these boards but they have all put their points fairly and have all made me think. What these two say and do makes me shudder.

winnybella · 24/04/2010 10:57

Wow, Alouiseg, did you actually say that Muslims should pack up and leave UK?

posieparker · 24/04/2010 11:36

personal attack? Say and do, what do you know of what I do?

posieparker · 24/04/2010 11:38

I will go through all of my comments and see where I have attacked take....I know I haven't.

posieparker · 24/04/2010 11:51

Nope, just the odd response.

Alouiseg · 24/04/2010 12:04

I didn't say anything about problematic British history I said Islam was a problematic religion!

No winnybella I emphatically did not say that Muslims should pack up and leave the UK.

I do wish people would stop putting words into my mouth on here!

Alouiseg · 24/04/2010 12:07

You've got to love Robin Williams........

Leave it to Robin Williams to come up with the perfect plan. What we need now is for our UN Ambassador to stand up and repeat this message.
Robin Williams' plan...(Hard to argue with this logic!)

'I see a lot of people yelling for peace but I have not heard of a plan for peace. So, here's one plan.'

  1. 'The US,UK ,CANADA and AUSTRALIA will apologize to the world for our 'interference' in their affairs, past & present. You know, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Tojo, Noriega, Milosevic, Hussein, and the rest of those 'good 'ole' boys', we will never 'interfere' again.

  2. We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting withGermany , South Korea , the Middle East , and the Philippines . They don't want us there. We would station troops at our borders. No one allowed sneaking through holes in the fence.

  3. All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and leave We'll give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder will be gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of whom or where they are from. They're illegal!!! France will welcome them.

  4. All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 days unless given a special permit!!!! No one from a terrorist nation will be allowed in. If you don't like it there, change it yourself and don't hide here. Asylum would never be available to anyone. We don't need any more cab drivers or 7-11 cashiers.

  5. No foreign 'students' over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If they don't attend classes, they get a 'D' and it's back home baby.

  6. The US,UK ,CANADA and AUSTRALIA will make a strong effort to become self-sufficient energy wise. This will include developing nonpolluting sources of energy but will require a temporary drilling of oil in the Alaskan wilderness. The caribou will have to cope for a while

  7. Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for their oil. If they don't like it, we go someplace else. They can go somewhere else to sell their production. (About a week of the wells filling up the storage sites would be enough.)

  8. If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we will not 'interfere.' They can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds, rain, cement or whatever they need. Besides most of what we give them is stolen or given to the army. The people who need it most get very little, if anything.

  9. Ship the UN Headquarters to an isolated island someplace. We don't need the spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, the building would make a good homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.

  10. All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way, no one can call us 'Ugly Americans' any longer. The Language we speak is ENGLISH..learn it...or LEAVE...Now, isn't that a winner of a plan?
    'The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying 'Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses.' She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling, 'you want a piece of me?' '

posieparker · 24/04/2010 12:24

Like it .

KinderellaTristabelle · 24/04/2010 12:43

I am so I have to post.

"Please take your fatwa, your disgust of the human body, your forced marriage, your female genital mutilation, your male supremacy, your double standards your extremist sheltering mosques and your child brides who die of internal injuries and have a good look at what you represent."

Take a look at your disgraceful bigotry Alouise. That is offensive and dishonest nonsense.

Its attitudes like yours that radicalise people. I think you should go and live somewhere there are no people, obviously living in a society with other people is just too much for you.

Take a look at British culture, with its media objectification of women, small minded bigots, unnecessary female surgery (face, breast and labia) and white male supremacy. Just who has got double standards! Take a look at what you represent yourself.

If you're wearing a veil you're not under the same pressure to dress attractively/ wear make up/ be judged/harassed on your looks.

BTW I am white and brought up christian and my family have always lived in UK. Not that that is anything to be proud of. Alousie and posie, you make me ashamed of where I come from.

Alouise, that last post referring to Robin Williams, get a grip. Like I said, if you can't live in association with other faiths/ nations then find a little island all by yourself, because we're all in this together, like it or not. We cannot isolate ourselves...well you can try, but our nation can't, nor would we want to.

I think this is classic bigotry and hate speech. I am horrified to read this, makes us (in the UK) look like a bunch of ill mannered, ill educated fuckwits imho.

LittleMissHissyFit · 24/04/2010 12:56

OK have come late to this and have not trawled through entire thread so forgive me.

Firstly, I am not intending to offend anyone, this is merely my view on the subject having observed for quite a few years, and having lived in both western and islamic countries.

20-odd years ago, in DH country almost no women wore the veil.

Nowadays the pressure for women to cover, initially with a veil is immense, it is now not a choice, it is an expectation.

Everyday there are more and more Niqabs, and this is a dress that is NOT islamic, it is not required, it comes from Saudi Tribal customs.

You see young girls, 8 and 9yo with veils, and the mothers covered from head to foot.

It is however being encouraged more and more by imams. If you want to be a good person, you have to be a good muslim, your wife has to cover. Or directly to the women, if you want to be seen as a good person, get married (which in DH country is hard, the competition is intense) you have to cover.

We have a devout neighbour in our building in DH land, his wife wears the niqab, the gloves etc etc. The neighbour recently tried to insist the building's porter to force his wife to cover up. They try to shame others into taking it up. One thing for a woman to decide, another for her DH to tell her, quite another for a neighbour to tell her DH and for him to insist.

As I understand it, the porter refused, and the neighbour is trying to garner support to get rid of the porter.

I also have known of many women in the west, who have converted/reverted call it what you will, and have searched and found themselves muslim husbands.

Some of them, for many years, as single or independent women, have worn the veil, observed all fasts, preyed etc and lived good western muslim lives. Once the husband comes over, he bans her from eating her breakfast in pretty much every place she's ever eaten because there happens to be alcohol on the premises. Or that the restaurant serves pork. Cuts her off from other friends and her life becomes limited to his small and alienated existence. Many times in circumstances such as these, the husband turns more and more inward and this is where stronger and more fundamental beliefs can sprout.

Alcohol and all drugs are to be avoided and kept away from at all times, but Pork is now being vilified more and more, treated in the same vein as booze, but in the Koran it is only 'not to be eaten' and avoided unless absolutely a matter for life or death. Men wearing Gold and silk etc is fast becoming actively discouraged, more and more you will hear men being told by their muslim peers to stop wearing it, or as is most usual, to be gossiped or talked about for wearing it, until he desists.

Living in the UK, as many muslims will tell you, is a rich and accepting society. Living here grants you the freedom to live as you wish to, to accept the choices and lifestyles of those around you, to learn and appreciate the differences. You can get absolutely fabulous halal meat and foods here, you can prey, you can dress in whatever you fancy in the name of your religion.

You can NOT live as you wish in islamic countries, I am not a muslim, DH is. He would tell me to cover the back of my neck, in 40C temperatures, no-one else did this, but he was suffering from culture shock and reverting to what he thought was the right way.

The niqab is viewed as intimidating to almost everyone, even to those living in open muslim society. In DH country, anyone wearing the niqab or a fully bearded man in his flowing robes (sorry don't recall name) can find it hard to enter certain public buildings, clubs etc. They have been banned from wearing the niqab as nurses.

Most muslims in the west happily live alongside non-muslims, but there are a few - which give the others a bad name - that do not.

There are some that will do what they can to influence others and to try to bend them to a more devout belief. They start on their own first, the wives, the daughters,t he sisters but then it finds a way spreads to the wider society.

Modern Islam can have a place in an open and tolerant society, but an Islam that is mistrusting of the West, and one that tries to force, cajole or pressure into living exactly as the most devout of them is not going to be a positive addition to society at large.

The fights I have had with fellow expats on fora in DH country have been monumental... but I will always object to converts discussing how to shove kaffers off the path, to not greet them, or to wish them 'happy ' , or indeed to cut themselves off from all their old friends and family.

I used to remind them that if someone were to treat their own grandmother/mother or sister like that, mostly they would be very upset. My personal theory on these particular women, was that it was some kind of guilt driving them, to force them to be extra devout to make up for not being muslim for as long as everyone else around them.

Any strong form of religion will be intolerant of Gay rights for example, many that hold these strong beliefs are strongly anti other creeds, kinds and genders too.

Islam needs to define the niqab as a non islamic dress, and to be honest about it's origins. Followers need to be more informed about what they are wearing and why.

IMHO a full faced veil does not have a positive role to play in western society. I do find it intimidating, and feel that if it is not limited to the countries it actually belongs to, it will increase, as will the pressure on women and society to conform to an islam that will not be beneficial to an open and tolerant society.

takethatlady · 24/04/2010 13:09

Go KinderellaTristabelle - excellent post. Aloiuseg, I didn't say you said something about problematic British history, I said you said something problematic about British history. They're two quite different things.

Alouiseg · 24/04/2010 13:11

I rather liked hissyfit's post.

I've just spent a while reading this

The more I read about Islam the more I dislike it. Anyone found any good news about it?

CagedBird · 24/04/2010 13:28

Kinderella a great post, I don't agree with everything you have said but I did find it an extremely interesting 1st hand account of life in an islamic country and experiences with the veil.

That is an argument well put (for others with obvious bnp tendencies)

KinderellaTristabelle · 24/04/2010 13:29

In the UK two women a week are murdered by their partners or ex-partners. Honour crime anyone?

Rape is rife in the UK and often goes unpunished.

I think the system abusing women to which you refer Alouise is called patriarchy rather than Islam.

winnybella · 24/04/2010 13:31

But it does say that in this article that honour killings are not condoned by Islam, or any religion, for that matter. These, together with FGM and forced marriages are cultural practices.

And I did read your post wrong, sorry, but I still think your posts here display a rather worrying degree of bigotry and xenophobie.

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