Well done Belgium. Veil banned

[Nuttybear]

I fully support this. Really wish the liberals would put aside there protection of these men and free the women here. I vote for bring the same law here. I despise the veil and all it stands for. I saw a woman trip and fall because she could not see the kerb!!! Her husband/uncle/dad then had to guide her over the next kerb. I saw them again in the supermarket I so wanted to throw eggs at him but it would only make her plight worse. I know a minority want to wear the veil. Well, there are countries that support that decision. I know it might make matter worse for some but there must be a stand to free these women of this 13th century habit. Wearing of the veil is not in the Koran. All for modest dress, if you so wish but, unable to look around your world freely is wrong.

I don't think it should be banned either. For all the reasons that riven gave upthread early on.

I am more interested in understanding why they would want to. When it means that so many things which are competely natural to me (talking to my DH's friends, having an office job in an office with men, gardening and talking to the neighbours, chatting to an old school friend on the high street) would be impossible. I just really struggle to understand that not being able to do these things is not just fine, but in fact why would anyone want to do them anyway IYSWIM.

Actually this is kind of beside the point, but I posted a thread a week or so ago about Belgium banning the burqa. The thread ran to about 700 posts. The interesting thing is that i posted it in the FEMINISM section. There were many interesting arguments for and against.

However this thread is in IN THE NEWS and has attracted a huge number of different posters. Does that mean that lots of you have hidden, or ignored threads posted in the Feminism section?

Just interested really!

It is not even just the dress code that is being legislated against here, it is the mentality: that women are temptation & should be hidden from view.

Ah, would that we could legislate against such mentality. But we can't. And to those who are bound by that mentality, ban the veil and the only way to hide women is to keep them at home.

Your post

It is great to take guidance from the hadith. Some of it might even be words that Mohammad actually said. However, there are a lot of things in the hadith and I will venture a guess and say that you don't actually follow them all.

For example, several hadith talk about female circumcision and how best to perform it. It seems that Mohammad considered female circumcision not obligatory but a noble act nonetheless. Allegedly, he told a midwife to decrease the size of the clitoris but not by much, for that is better for the woman and her husband.

"Not obligatory but a noble act"

I understood that.

A surgical style mask doesn't obscure facial expressions in the same way as a veil. With a surgical mask you can see the forehead, cheeks, around the eyes, and from that can fathom age, sex, whether someone is smiling or frowning, or looks frightened, you can see their hair which holds clues as to what sort of a person you are.

I also understand why people in Japan are wearing the face masks, and the reason holds no association with oppression. Having said that it would feel pretty weird if every single person had one on.

How about being on the tube and every single person is wearing a balaclava.

Do you know what "hadith" means? Look it up. It does not mean "Islam". The whole point I was trying to make was that hadith are not an essential part of Islam.

Hadith are basically hearsay of various degrees of credibility. Even the most credible are invariably a game of Chinese whispers - Mohammad said and this guy heard it, then he told it to this other guy, then that guy told it to this guy, etc. Maybe some of it were actual words of Mohammad. Maybe none of it was.

The point was that FGM is not mentioned AT ALL in the Quran, which Muslims believe is the literal word of God as well as His complete message to mankind. Ergo, FGM is not part of Islam.

I hope that was clearer.

Being able to look at somebodies face aids communication no end, we read each others expressions and body language without even knowing it. Tiny babies stare at faces. Can I ask if any of you who do cover your face do so alone with your child? I suspect not, because they need to see you and if the garment is so unencumbered you wouldn't bother removing it.
Reposting, hoping someone will answer.

So if you chose to wear it, and I believe most do, both out of religious and political motivations, you are putting everybody you meet at a disadvantage to you. You can see and read their face but they have no clues from yours it is a handicap to others, not you. Of course they could always cover their face to even thing up.

Also, as covering the face is growing in popularity, it could become more expectable and the normal thing to do women and girls will become under increasing pressure to follow suit, both by man and other women in their community. I wish more women would think before they do this, it is a choice that doesn't just affect the wearer, and I think it should be banned. Wear what you like everywhere else but the face is too important to cover.

Grimma - Burqa ban can actually be quite effective on the mentality, by decreasing the number of 30-odd burqa wearers and their supporters/families (as some leave) and stopping any new arrivals.

I realize that a few of these 30 burqa wearers might be native Belgian converts, and it seems unfair to effectively ask them to leave, but as I said to Riven earlier, a nation has the right to demand that its own norms and mentality prevail in their own country, and you can't very well expect your countrymen to tolerate any alien mentality that you might adopt.

Sorry messed that last post up.

In Islamic terminology, the term hadith refers to reports of statements or actions of Muhammad, or of his tacit approval of something said or done in his presence.[4] Classical hadith specialist Ibn Hajar says that the intended meaning of hadith in religious tradition is something attributed to Muhammad, as opposed to the Qur'an.[5] Other associated words possess similar meanings including: khabar (news, information) often refers to reports about Muhammad, but sometimes refers to traditions about his companions and their successors from the following generation; conversely, athar (trace, vestige) usually refers to traditions about the companions and successors, though sometimes connotes traditions about Muhammad. The word sunnah (custom) is also used in reference to a normative custom of Muhammad or the early Muslim community.[4]

It's men making Islam more horrible for women as far as I can see.

FYI the last person who told me to "look something up" couldn't explain it themselves either.

Eh? It doesn't change the mentality, it might just shift a few people with that mentality out of Belgium. I don't quite see how that really helps.

Who is to define a country's 'norms and mentality' to which everyone is supposed to conform? I don't know about Belgium but I like to think the norm here included tolerance, support for freedom of speech and expression, and a dislike of the state imposing bans.

Alouiseq - WTH are you talking about re I "couldn't explain it" myself?

I explained it as clearly as I would think was humanly possible. Could this be a problem with your vision? Or your prejudices preventing you from understanding what you read?

My vision is fine, 3.5 contacts help me with that.

My prejudices however tend to get a little fired up when female circumcision is mentioned.

Female circumcision IS associated with Islam or certainly Muhammed.

Grimma - Of course a ban doesn't change the mentality of the 30 burqa wearers themselves. It affects the dynamics of this mentality propagating or not within the country - i.e. these burqa wearers leave for greener (more tolerant) pastures, and new ones don't come.

"How that helps" is obvious, don't you think? No more burqa in Belgium. That seems to be the desired effect.

"Who is to define a country's 'norms and mentality' to which everyone is supposed to conform?"

By definition, these would not need to be defined .

Alouiseq - There is a problem in this dialogue and it is not that I can't write.

Repeat after me: That a hadith says something doesn't necessarily mean Mohammad said it. That was the point.

It's not like there were tape recorders at the time, fgs.

Fgs...Female Circumcision is even bloody mentioned. !!!!!!

Oh ffs alouise, this isn't a thread about female circumcision and coteDAzur clearly said that it wasn't accepted let me make it clear to you:

Traditionally Islam did not call for the removal of the clitoris, but rather a slight trimming of it as it was supposed to increase sexual pleasure for the woman. Since the correct practice has become so lost, and has deviated in most of the cultures it is still practiced in to gross mutilation, it is thus ruled out. Scholars in many lands agree that given that the correct practice has become something else altogether, the ruling is that the prevalent forms of circumcision are impermissible.

That means it isn't to be done (just to clarify).

Men still have to be circumcised.

Completely off point btw

A slight trimming!!!!!!! That's acceptable?????

Oh honestly, all religion is patriarchal shite but Islam takes the biscuit.

You poor deluded fools.

Wake up!

so you can get bits of plastic stuffed into your breasts to make them look larger, you can get your nose chiselled (literally) to make you more attractive, you can get poison pushed into your skin, fat pushed into your lips or butt to make it bigger to make you appear younger, women are getting sown together to be made (ahem) tighter, you can have your cheek bones filed down or bits of plastic stuck in them to make you look more attractive, hair plugs?? complete gender reassignment.

Are you as bemused by any of these??

The argument has turned and alouise I've heard you on a few threads and think at the best of times you talk utter tripe but I'm off and won't be back on this thread. Might check out the feminism thread

alouiseq I have been watching this thread since yesterday but refrained from saying anything but now you're being really offensive

cagedbird I know you'll read this despite saying you're going.

I can talk tripe if i like but I won't defend Female Genital Mutilation ,...........like you!

People that have aesthetic surgery choose to!

They do not get pinned down as a child and their clitoris scraped away with a rusty razor blade, risking death, infection, complicated delivery and scepticemia.

Quick Q? Why is your name caged bird??????? A little clue perhaps.

alouiseg

Female genital mutilation is not permissable in islam

Nor is murder

Or suicide

Or forcing a woman to wear a hijab or niqab against her will

Or forced marriage

But honour killings are practiced regularly. Whether these things are permitted or not they happen!

Forced marriage is exclusive to Islam.

Face facts.

Forced marriage is not exclusive to Islam.

Neither is genital mutilation.

Both are cultural practices, not religious.

It's a problematic religion, it carries outdated extremist practises.

It is a very intolerant religion that demands tolerance from the people around it.

Banning the burqa would send a clear message that intolerant, extreme religions are not welcome.

Please take your fatwa, your disgust of the human body, your forced marriage, your female genital mutilation, your male supremacy, your double standards your extremist sheltering mosques and your child brides who die of internal injuries and have a good look at what you represent.

Stop alienating yourselves from your host country.