Well done Belgium. Veil banned

[Nuttybear]

I fully support this. Really wish the liberals would put aside there protection of these men and free the women here. I vote for bring the same law here. I despise the veil and all it stands for. I saw a woman trip and fall because she could not see the kerb!!! Her husband/uncle/dad then had to guide her over the next kerb. I saw them again in the supermarket I so wanted to throw eggs at him but it would only make her plight worse. I know a minority want to wear the veil. Well, there are countries that support that decision. I know it might make matter worse for some but there must be a stand to free these women of this 13th century habit. Wearing of the veil is not in the Koran. All for modest dress, if you so wish but, unable to look around your world freely is wrong.

Just remembered i was out doing some gardening just now and was trying to dig up a big tree root. It occured to me that it would be harder to do that with a full veil on I think.

Then I realised that I could take it off - but actually not, as the neighbours come out into the garden quite a lot and some of them are men.

And I have a chat with them over the fence - that would be a no-no. But if I didn't chat with the male neighbours over the fence we wouldn't have such good relationships with our neighbours (DH is shy) and I would n't have got free gardening advice and bits of plants and stuff.

It's all these little things that I think I would miss.

this is my DH

He doesn't dress like that all the time, but quite often.

oops try again

tuareg man

Eric, she's not culturally or religiously obliged to choose this outfit is she? Although it is seriously messed up....weren't they banned from using a bus?

The tuareg man look is a style worn in the desert isn't it? A practical garment against the sand.

The full veils for women are not worn for practical reasons.

As for the two posts now which have shown men in loose fitting clothes/with hats and so on - it's not really the same is it. It's about the face being covered, not about hats or headscarves or other types of dress.

I was just thinking about other religious communities in my area who have quite striking forms of religious dress - and I don't bat an eyelid.

It's the not being able to see the face thing, I just can't get past it.

"Now, are men going to stop? Honestly? Or should women dress more sensibly so they are listenend too. Its not fair but thats how it is."

I do believe this is the answer to my question.

Haven't read the whole thread, too long sorry if my point has already been made and answered.

Being able to look at somebodies face aids communication no end, we read each others expressions and body language without even knowing it. Tiny babies stare at faces. Can I ask if any of you who do cover your face do so alone with your child? I suspect not, because they need to see you and if the garment is so unencumbered you wouldn't bother removing it.

So if you chose to wear it, and I believe most do, both out of religious and political motivations, you are putting everybody you meet at a disadvantage to you. You can see and read their face but they have no clues from yours it is a handicap to others, not you. Of course they could always cover their face to even thing up.

Also, as covering the face is growing in popularity, it could become more expectable and the normal thing to do women and girls will become under increasing pressure to follow suit, both by man and other women in their community. I wish more women would think before they do this, it is a choice that doesn't just affect the wearer, and I think it should be banned. Wear what you like everywhere else but the face is too important to cover.

How somebody who covers up will come on and answer my points.

I don't feel in the least handicapped by not being able to read the faces of the veiled women in the supermarket. Do you, really?
I'm simply not that nosy.

None of the muslims I personally know use veils (most don't even cover their heads) but if they did, they would presumably be perfectly happy to uncover if we were socialising in each other's houses, where real communication might be relevant. And of course they don't cover up when alone with their kids.

Is "real communication only relevant" when socialising in the houses of people you know?

I communicate with loads more people than that in loads more situations than that in a normal day.

It is restrcitive, there is no point in saying otherwise. What women who wear veils have been arguing on this thread, is that they are totally happy with these restrictions, and do not see why they would need to communicate in other circumstances anyway.

The anecdote about the woman covering her face and not her boobs when she was bfeeding and a male walked into a room made me wonder if there's an element of deliberately erasing the individuality of the veiled woman. From the chin down, we're all pretty much the same, give or take, but facial features and hair are usually very individual.

CagedBird - Actually, I'm not wrong. Hadith are not an absolutely essential part of Islam, for the simple reason that Quran is the complete and comprehensive message of God. It is God's final message and no further revelations are necessary to complete God's message to mankind. I can't be bothered to search for exact quotes, but it says so in the Quran.

It is great to take guidance from the hadith. Some of it might even be words that Mohammad actually said. However, there are a lot of things in the hadith and I will venture a guess and say that you don't actually follow them all.

For example, several hadith talk about female circumcision and how best to perform it. It seems that Mohammad considered female circumcision not obligatory but a noble act nonetheless. Allegedly, he told a midwife to decrease the size of the clitoris but not by much, for that is better for the woman and her husband.

Have you had this procedure done or do you agree with me that hadith are not an absolutely essential part of Islam?

For the record, I don't believe for a second that posieparker has a degree in theology that even remotely involves any study of Islam.

She is woefully ignorant on this subject, not to mention quite offensive to any practicing Muslim.

Sure its restrictive. So are tight trousers.
So what, if its their choice?

Unless it is doing real harm - and I honestly don't think that missing the subtleties of facial expression does that - why ban something?

However - todays news, french police stopped a woman for driving in a veil because it obstructed her vision. I'd say that was probably a correct decision because there is a real safety issue involved.

Riven - Did you see my post of 09:44? It was addressed to you.

I see that you have continued to talk about the Belgian law as if it is all about freedom of dressing as one wishes, and how you are English therefore not opposing English culture, which suggested to me that perhaps you didn't see my post.

My bad cotedazure i mistook sunnah for hadith. You do have to follow sunnah along with Quran but not necessarily hadith as they have not all fully been proven.

"However - todays news, french police stopped a woman for driving in a veil because it obstructed her vision. I'd say that was probably a correct decision because there is a real safety issue involved. "

tbf Grimma I might agree with that. I have seen women driving with a veil on. I'd like to try one on actually and see what it actually feels like.

Tight trousers do not mean that you can only communicate with people you know in their homes.

You can also not wear the tight trouers if you are planning a loose trouser activity.

Can you honestly not see that this is restrictive? I mean, there are loads of jobs that you can't do, loads of people you can't talk to, loads of activites that are out of the question. It's not the same as tight trousers, it's just not.

Tight trousers do not mean that you are not allowed to speak to half the population.

Honestly you can't see a difference?

Would you be comforatble in a world where everyone was masked when out of doors or in the presence of the opposite sex or strangers? Would that make you feel comfortable?

Imagine sitting on the tube and everybody on there was wearing a mask.

Good to agree once in a while on these threads

..........ok if Islam suggests that female circumcision is the way forward then any woman who follows it is an abomination to her sex.

It is not even just the dress code that is being legislated against here, it is the mentality: that women are temptation & should be hidden from view.

I was being flippant - of course theres a difference. But if a person chooses some restriction, for reasons I can't fathom, I don't see that its anyone elses business.

I hate the idea of any woman being compelled to wear a veil. But banning is too blunt a solution because for those women who currently veil from compulsion rather than choice, a proportion would find themselves effectively imprisoned. For some, the veil is the means of liberty - limited liberty but better than walls.

Alouiseq - Is that what you understood from my post?

Imagine sitting on the tube and everybody on there was wearing a mask.

Best avoid Japan then. I gather that mask wearing on public transport is quite widespread there.