Well done Belgium. Veil banned

[Nuttybear]

I fully support this. Really wish the liberals would put aside there protection of these men and free the women here. I vote for bring the same law here. I despise the veil and all it stands for. I saw a woman trip and fall because she could not see the kerb!!! Her husband/uncle/dad then had to guide her over the next kerb. I saw them again in the supermarket I so wanted to throw eggs at him but it would only make her plight worse. I know a minority want to wear the veil. Well, there are countries that support that decision. I know it might make matter worse for some but there must be a stand to free these women of this 13th century habit. Wearing of the veil is not in the Koran. All for modest dress, if you so wish but, unable to look around your world freely is wrong.

imsonottelling I agree.

In the 1970's, women in Yorkshire were advised by the police to stay indoors in the evenings until the Ripper had been caught.

My mum and her fellow bra-burners were right there to point out that in fact, as it was a male who was suspected of the crime, it would make much more sense for men to stay indoors after dark and for the women to walk freely.

But it is never seen like that is it - nobody would dream of trying to curtail a man's freedom becuase of a crime somebody else might commit.

Why don't people see that deciding what a woman can and can't wear is paternalistic and infantilising whether it's her husband/father who is doing it, or the state?

There will be some women who are made to wear it by relatives (who could be female by the way) and some who choose to wear it. Those who are made to wear it will now be confined to the house...nice and those who choose to wear it are having their freedom of choice removed by lawmakers who think they know what's best for women, yet again.

This is a very polarising issue amongst feminists, (leaving out the anti-islamists, whose opinion I'm not really interested in) between the one side, forcibly imposing equality through legislation which might actually contradict a woman's own choices, and allowing women to make choices that we might not agree with. This extends to things like the issue of whether to legalise prostitution as well (though I take a slightly different position on that issue), and porn etc.

Living as a surrendered wife is pretty oppressive and unequal. Shall we outlaw that way of life as well? What about outlawing lazy fuckers who refuse to do their share of the housework?

We all make lifestyle choices (and how you dress is a lifestyle choice, however religious people see it!) some of which would shock other people, that's what makes us different. Where does the state get off legislating about lifestyle choices that don't negatively impact on other people? The mind boggles.

I don't agree with alouiseg's posts so far in general but I have seen much of the double standards she talks of.

Women having to behave but men doing what they like etc - drinking, chatting to the opposite sex while their sisters sit obediently with eyes downcast etc.

Do you takethatlady? How thrilling!!!!

I left school at 16 and was earning 5 times the national average salary by the time i was 20. So therefore I am completely uneducated but very good at what I do.

Anyone else want to brag about their qualifications or lack of??

Back to the point, I would ban face coverings in a heartbeat.

I do agree with you however Morris re Riven's post about women dressing more sensibly because men can't help looking. I don't think that's our issue to solve.

You're the one who pointlessly brought up posieparker's theology degree. I was taking the michael!

How about banning public displays of S&M relationships? this couple shouldn't be allowed to walk about expressing the inequality of their relationship should they? Oh wait...they aren't hurting anyone...it's none of our business!

Riven I haven't read the whole thread but I am yet to understand why muslim woman want to cover up while their brothers, fathers etc don't?

You can't just speak for yourself then claim that you represent muslim women. I'd personally love to hear what muslim women want.

What do they want? And why don't they think it's sexist to ask women to cover up becuase of male behaviour?

PosieParkers theology degree is totally relevant on this thread and you were dismissing her out of hand.

No ttl, you were taking the opportunity.

This has got childish - I should have bowed out when I said I would.

Sorry eric, who are you arguing with? It isn't me, surely. I don't believe in banning clothing.

ericnorth

What they are wearing is self imposed. Their choice and they are BOTH wearing it. If she was dressed like that and he was in jeans and a shirt with a few more similarly dressed ladies along for the ride there might be an issue.

Yes, self imposed. Just as the niqab often is. It is, however, a perfect example of an outward expression of an unequal relationship (which is what the niqab has been described as), and they aren't both wearing it, I'm not referring to their goth style, I'm referring to the dog lead round her neck, did you miss that?

Fwiw that S&M picture made me feel really uncomfortable too. I wouldn't ban it!!! (get that in quickly) Obviously it's their choice, but YUCK. If that was my daughter I'd fecking despair.

I don't see how it's less oppressive to force someone NOT to wear something than to force them to wear something.

Plus I imagine that for women who are truly oppressed, wearing a veil is probably the leaast of their worries and banning it won't stop them from being forced into marriages or prevented from seeking employment.

It just means that loads of women who choose to wear a veil are now being oppressed by the government. Nice

Sorry, just to confirm ,we're still talking about Belgium here?

Nothing has been banned here in UK.

Riven how do you know what all Muslim women want? I don't see how one person can possibly know what all women want? I don't pretend to know what all white Catholic women aged 20-35 want just because I am one. You can only be the voice of yourself.

Also, as you have pointed out, you are a white English Muslim so do not come from some of the more repressive Muslim cultures that the ban is really trying to help. There is a world of difference between one women making a choice to cover up and a women who comes from a different society where women are not treated as equally.

I actually know Muslim women who have said that being so covered up is not their choice, but what their families expect. I'm sure a good few of them would be relieved if told they couldn't wear certain items as it would give them the freedom they want but without having to have the confrontation with their families/wide communitites.

Riven I am listening.

I just don't understand.

I'm just arguing
Came to thread late so I'm not addressing anyone in particular. Just getting irate.

Except just then I was addressing alouiseg.

Hi

I am a Muslim woman, I cover myself, I believe that there is one God, I believe that the Quran is the literal word of God, so if modesty is perscribed in the Quran then as a practicing Muslim woman I will undertake that in a way that I see suitable, my covering is not about my husband or father etc, its about my relationship with God and its something personnel to me, my choice my body, my beliefs, my mind etc

what I want as a muslim woman since someone asked what do muslim woman want, is for people to respect my choice whether they agree or not, and in turn I will respect the choices made by other people whether I agree or not, its a simple concept really, I think its got something to do with the whole we live in an accepting, free society blah blah

covering is something very natural to me, it fits my own personality its who I am, and its my identity, and when I meet people they can either take me as I am or am not interested in knowing them end off.

again I want to ask, what is the supposed socially acceptable way for woman to dress and if you remove my veil to make me socially acceptable, how would you dress me?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

oh and what Muslim men do, well thats between them and thier God, am only responsible for me and my family

Back in the good old days, muslim men used to dress like this

In many Arabian countries they still dress like this. In fact, I've pictures of my dh dressed like this. In sheffield, Manchester, Nottingham, London, I've seen men dressed like this.

I don't deny the hypocrisy of some muslim men clubbing it and drinking it up whilst they're obedient wives stay at home. I think that's abhorrent. But at teh end of the day we all answer for ourselves and the old "he did it so I did" just isn't good enough. If my dh were to do it, I'd leave and it is that simple. However I am aware that some women are in relationships (familial as well) that they cannot just up and leave from. But some women are in these relationships and they are not muslim. Many women on mn are or were in abusive relationships.

Between you and your God, literal word of God....mmm, that's terribly frightening. So you think that your husband can beat you?

Why do you have to cover for your God, The Prophet's wives didn't even the six year old, or was she nine when they married?

And as for literal word of God can you point me to the part of the Koran that requires you to cover your face and the part that says God asks that of you for the relationship that you have and not for the lust of men?

What was wrong with the identity, like your face, that you were born with?

Hi puddin

Do you mind me asking what you do for a living? Or did for a living before children?