Well done Belgium. Veil banned

[Nuttybear]

I fully support this. Really wish the liberals would put aside there protection of these men and free the women here. I vote for bring the same law here. I despise the veil and all it stands for. I saw a woman trip and fall because she could not see the kerb!!! Her husband/uncle/dad then had to guide her over the next kerb. I saw them again in the supermarket I so wanted to throw eggs at him but it would only make her plight worse. I know a minority want to wear the veil. Well, there are countries that support that decision. I know it might make matter worse for some but there must be a stand to free these women of this 13th century habit. Wearing of the veil is not in the Koran. All for modest dress, if you so wish but, unable to look around your world freely is wrong.

does it not all boil down to percieved oppression?

riddle me this ( no please do it's not rhetorical)

why do we assume that muslim women are oppressed if they wear a veil.

i think if i am being out and out honest with you here i would type on mumsnet this:

we can't know if its a free choice to wear it - that's the rub, that's te catch 22.

however i fully suooprt a person who freely chooses to wear one.

however i think my inner soul is screaming that its wrong.

and i don't know why - so i refer back to the beginning.

why do we assume muslim women are oppressed

sorry for hideous typing ( more so than usual) not using own laptop and my fingers are still finding their place

The comparison with hoodies is interesting. What is the general feeling about groups of youths wearing hoodies? What are the wearers saying, in the opinion of MN, about themselves and about their attitude to you, the person-on-the-street?

CagedBird, you used the phrase "If my husband expected me to dress..." that made me wonder if Muslim men in general feel they should have a say in how their wives dress.

Also, since the burqa has been hijacked by some extremists, why choose to wear it? The majority of Irish people (me among them) took pains to avoid symbols of Irish Nationalist extremists, including the Irish flag, which was hijacked in the same way as the burqa apparently has been, unless they identified with those extremists. You would hardly ever see an Irish flag flying. There was shock and a lot of raised eyebrows when a neighbour flew an Irish and a Papal flag side by side on the occasion of the visit to Ireland of John Paul II in 1979. When I visited the US in 1987 I was gobsmacked by the American fashion for flying the stars and stripes on the front of houses. Symbols are a very important means of communication; your attire can be seen as a symbol which communicates attitudes.

Since a man is supposed to avert his eyes to avoid looking at a woman, why isn't that enough, if holding yourself to a higher responsibility is what Islam expects? Why do women choose to bear the brunt of the responsibility for modesty and chaste behaviour, and wear clothing that essentially lets men off the hook?

Riven, I am interested to see that your wife-beater grandfather was an Irish Catholic; sadly the cliche of older Irish men holding very misogynistic attitudes, along with a super-developed sense of entitlement, has a lot of truth to it. Men like your grandfather grew up in a society where male privilege was a part of life for generations, reinforced by the church (thinking of the Letters of Paul in the NT and how they were interpreted.)

Cagedbird....that's a rather convenient comment, I am not anti Islam. I know some very nice and moderate muslims, can't abide any extremism. I take offence to the fact that because I criticize the Burkha you have felt it necessary to call me ignorant, uninformed and now prejudiced...

nice

Finally caught up.

Cagedbird. Thanks for saying I was being rational (versus emotive). I am trying

There do seem to be a lot of confusing bits.

Some say we shouldn't be questioning WHY people cover their face. We sort of have to though to have this debate. Some muslims have said we must not ban face coverings because their religion requires them.

That is quite different from the position of others so different arguments apply. So we ask to better understand and discuss it. It's no use us saying "but it's not in the Koran" to someone who wears them for other reasons.

If your god requires it flat out then I do have trouble with the notion (as others have) that you will take it off for interviews, examinations by doctors etc. In fact I don't believe that a muslim woman who did it for THAT reason would do any such thing.

Remember Jack Straw was vilified when he simply ASKED a muslim women if she would consider removing it to ease communication. It wasn't enough to say no. It was seen as an attack on muslims.

If (as some seem to be saying) it's to keep MEN away. Well I am a man and feel a little offended. Not terribly to be honest, but I can see how many might find that extremely offensive.

The best analogy I can think of off hand is wearing something that everyone knew meant "black people keep away from me". A lot of black people would say "hey why should I care? sod em!" but it wouldn't be acceptable.

I do think people should wear what clothing they like, but unfortunately a flag isn't just a piece of cloth and nor is a mask.

Haven't read whole thread but am broadly in agreement with onagar and nottelling.

At the end of the day, I don't support banning clothing of any kind, so that's a non starter for me.

But veiling and covering girls and women makes me extremely uncomfortable. The fact that they have a 'choice' is a bit irrelevant really if they were brought up in a certain religion or with a certain background where there were expectations of behaviour.

I have heard a million times 'but it's not sexist, in the Koran it says both men and women shoud be modest' but that means nothing does it - I've never in my life seen a man in urban Scotland wearing restrictive or 'covering' dress, but I've seen countless women in it. In practice, the women are expected to cover while the men can dress for comfort, style or convenience.

It will never, ever sit right with me. It's none of my business of course how religious poeple behave, but we do live in a democracy and I can say what I like about the idea of shielding women from men's eyes. The truth is I find it quite abhorrent. Worst of all is when it's young girls - they should just be children imo like their brothers get to be.

I'm not calling for a ban either.

Why do short skirts make you uncomfortable btw?

Your issues are with male behaviour then, not with women's clothing.

I've got massive tits, always have had. Men do look at them no matter what I wear. Never occurred to me that this was my problem, I always thought it was theirs.

Riven, even though I'm on the other side in the veil thing you have a good point about cleavage. I think I treat women respectfully and I'm not the type to leer, but if there is too much on display I find myself concentrating on NOT looking which is distracting in itself.

I would say with that though that there is nothing wrong with looking (in passing) and that women who wear low tops shouldn't be embarrassed that someone will look and the person looking shouldn't be made to feel embarrassed either.

That isn't the same as "Oh god!! doesn't she have BIG ones! Drool!" If I ever get like that please shoot me.

MorrisZapp, every single person is brought up with a certain background where there are expectations of behaviour - every single one of us is. It's easy to think that your own background is neutral, because you're used to it, and it's easy to think that someone else's is strange, because you're not. But it's the same for everyone, in my view.

"CagedBird, you used the phrase "If my husband expected me to dress..." that made me wonder if Muslim men in general feel they should have a say in how their wives dress."

As much as I say "where dya think you're going looking like that" if he puts on something stupid looking - especially if he's out walking with me . Aside from the odd joke, surely if women, want their partner to comment if they look nice? Thus shouldn't your partner comment if he doesn't think you look nice? Ahh the age old "does my bum look big in this?????"

"Since a man is supposed to avert his eyes to avoid looking at a woman, why isn't that enough, if holding yourself to a higher responsibility is what Islam expects? Why do women choose to bear the brunt of the responsibility for modesty and chaste behaviour, and wear clothing that essentially lets men off the hook?"

I completely understand your point here. It does seem like the burden is upon the woman, which it is and isn't. Men also have limits to their dressing. They aren't allowed to wear anything tight fitting or body form showing. In fact in islamic countries they often wear the Jilbab with a head wrap which is pretty similar to what the women wear.

Posie, look through every single one of your comments, you didn't critisise you insulted it and called the women who choose to wear it all sorts of epithets. Many people on this thread have critisised it and I don't believe I singled any one of them out - maybe it's your language and how you put yourself across.

Onagar "If your god requires it flat out" that's what I keep saying, it's not required flat out. A woman can say, I'm wearing my veil today, and then tomorrow say, I need to see the doctor and I'll have to take it off.In some islamic countries where teh veil is the norm some women do work, but they work in female environments. They are women's doctors, teachers, et al. But I alas can see the confusion. Maybe it's just something I've come to terms with - all though in no way do I support the abusers who use religion as a get out of jail free card.

I remember the Jack straw thing and I remember feeling at the time "here they go again" and I was referring to the what I felt was unnecessary muslims declaring this was an attack on the faith. I see absolutely no problem in asking someone to remove their veil. As long as they have the right to say no. And I think many rational muslims felt the same.

It's not the same though riven, is it. I hate orange tans, visible thongs and even jeggings etc too. But these are matters of taste, there is no political meaning to any of it.

Ime many very young women go through a stage of wearing silly, 'sexy' type clothing, which they very quickly grow out of as they mature. I know I did.

So for most women, wobbly flesh on display simply isn't an issue. The vast majority of women will not show you their cleavage as you pass them on the street. But religious symbols carry meaning, and if the meaning is percieved as a sexist one then I think it's no wonder that so many non religious people think it is outdated, odd and oppressive.

I can't see it as equivalent or even as similar.

"By ShadeofViolet Thu 22-Apr-10 10:18:01
Surely taking away someones right to wear what they want is a form of oppression?"

Heres an ace example of the classic looney left thinking. The rights of the individual come before the rights and benefits to society, and the rights of the majority, eh SoV?

Wrong. The customs and rights of society need to come first, because your thinking is devisive and creates enclaving and ghettoisation. Integration, not separation.

In english society, we find it offensive to keep your face covered - it smacks of hiding your identity. And we, the mass of society, demand we can identify people.

So if you want to were a veil or burkha in your own home, carry on you can do what you like in your own home, but in the street, in your job, in the shops, we demand you comply with our customs, and respect our culture. The veil and the burkah are nothing to do with religious belief, and offensive to us. And were the majority.

lincstash, I wonder how you know you're in the majority on thinking this. Almost everybody I know is tolerant of other people's dress. Who is this 'majority'?

In english society, we find it offensive to keep your face covered

No 'we' don't. I don't, lots of us on this thread don't. Don't be so arrogant as to claim you speak for 'English society'. Don't 'demand you comply' in my name please. My perception of the majority of English society is that we're pretty happy to be tolerant of people doing what the heck they want with their own faces. Yours obviously differs.

Oh riven that's such a disappointing post. Women should cover up because men won't change??????

Then you call yourself a feminist?

Feminists come in all shapes and sizes but in my feminism, when men have a problem women don't have to fix it by changing their own behaviour.

Boo hoo for your poor hubby, having to look at the nasty woman's boobs. I'm sure he'll be ok though. It's just skin fgs.

How does he cope on holiday or in hot weather? And anyway, looking at people is ok - I look at people all the time. Mens legs and everything! I still take them seriously as people though as I'm not a shallow arsehole. Most people grow out of seeing the opposite sex as mere objects when they are young adults. If they don't, the problem is theirs alone.

Thanks Grimma. That's what I was trying to say

I guess I just don't tiptoe around an issue, I do think that anyone who is so 'into' a religion that it means she covers her face and lives a lesser existence in this life is quite ridiculous to me.

Ah thats why banks make motorcyclists remove there helmets i nbanks, and why teenagers use hoodies to hide ther eID when ther eup to no good.

You appear to be the minority, GrimmaTheNome, most people find it disconcerting to try and communicate with someone when you cant see there face.

The fact is you and require facial expressions to pick up clues as to the mood of the speaker and the meaning of there words and hand gestures. Its an essential psychological part of face to face communication. Ask any psychologist or ad man.