Well done Belgium. Veil banned

[Nuttybear]

I fully support this. Really wish the liberals would put aside there protection of these men and free the women here. I vote for bring the same law here. I despise the veil and all it stands for. I saw a woman trip and fall because she could not see the kerb!!! Her husband/uncle/dad then had to guide her over the next kerb. I saw them again in the supermarket I so wanted to throw eggs at him but it would only make her plight worse. I know a minority want to wear the veil. Well, there are countries that support that decision. I know it might make matter worse for some but there must be a stand to free these women of this 13th century habit. Wearing of the veil is not in the Koran. All for modest dress, if you so wish but, unable to look around your world freely is wrong.

Morris, you're still here, but you didn't answer me

lincstash - you have only responded to Grimma, and not to me. Who is this 'majority'? Who is it who gets to define what UK culture is for everybody else? We've had the whole communication debate. Next time you find yourself unable to talk to somebody on the telephone, I'll agree with you.

Sorry take that, I didn't see your post. This thread grows v quickly!

No, I don't agree. Of course we all grow up with our own culture, expectations etc and nobody is 'neutral', but it's not ok imo just to say that my objections are to do with oddness or 'other'ness.

They aren't at all. They're to do with women's equality with men.

My own family aren't religious but both of my grannies are. Doesn't bother me at all. Nor do religious festivals etc.

But I will object all day long where I see gender inequality, and it's not enough to say 'but they're just different'. In my personal view, they aren't just different to me, they are oppressing women by expecting them to cover up.

Riven, so do most women. Look at the lady in the post office. The newsreader. The lollipop lady. Your kids' teacher. Do you see wobbly cleavage falling out and skirts up to here?

Really?

Most women and men want their body for themselves, so they wear normal clothes.

Nobody my age wears the kind of clothes you seem so aerated about, it isn't an issue so why make it one.

This debate is stalled dead isn't it if you think that the world is divided into poeple who dress like prostitutes and people who wear religious coverings.

But this returns to what I was trying to say yesterday (I really need to spend less time on MN). Why do so many people who don't wear a veil think they can speak for women who do and say 'you're being oppressed, and you don't even know it'? Any of us could say that to each other. I just wouldn't dream of patronising another woman and saying she hasn't got equality if she thinks she has. It comes down to freedom of choice, I agree, but that means we have to respect that other people make choices that we do not like or understand, and that it is none of our business so long as that doesn't restrict our own freedom.

Linctash....perhaps you like to see people's face when talking face to face and not face to veil, puts one at an unfair advantage.

But the men don't cover do they.

I have never in my life seen a man in Scotland wearing religious covering unless you count the Jewish skullcap.

So clearly the expectation isn't very strong.

Morris, you say again, 'normal' clothes - your definition of 'normal' is not necessarily the same as somebody else's.

My own belief is that any woman who feels deeply uncomfortable without covering beyond what normal trousers/skirts and jumpers provide must have issues of some kind.

Normal clothes cover the whole body. Nothing intimate is on display.

What you wear is no concern of mine but I reserve the right to see your attitude to covering as distinctly odd.

You had noticed that on text only communications, we had to develop an whole range of EMOTICONS, little faces to help us convey our feelings. Even in text messaging, we had to resort to inventing electronic facial expressions.

go and read

www.face-and-emotion.com/dataface/expression/expression.jsp

Its entitled "Facial Expression: A Primary Communication System"

You need to go learn some stuff about this subject. Facial signs are a primary communication vehicle. Thats why talking to a covered face makes people uncomfortable.

ttl, get over yourself...we all know what Morris means by normal.

The majority that Lincstash refers to are probably a combination of white/christian leaning.

Like it or not that is actually the majority in England.

But take that, most religious men who live here wear Western clothing. So within a religion, normal is different depending on what sex you were born.

Facial expressions are an important channel of nonverbal communication. Many animal species display facial expressions, but expressions are highly developed particularly in the primates, and perhaps most of all, in humans. Even though the human species has acquired the powerful capabilities of a verbal language, the role of facial expressions in person-to-person interactions remains substantial. Messages of the face that provide commentary and illustration about verbal communications are significant in themselves.

Other types of expressions provide another, different mode for understanding the private, hidden side of the inner person, a side which may not be accessible in the form of verbalizations. For example, the facial behaviors related to emotion can reveal part of the feeling side of a person's private life. Such emotion indicators range from stereotyped, full-face expressions that are obvious to fleeting, partial-face movements that are hard to see.

Maybe Riven and her husband could butt out of women's cleavages but as they are on show, they feel compelled to look and then to speak scathingly about it later.

For as long as I see covered women, I am compelled to look and I will comment.

"I guess I just don't tiptoe around an issue, I do think that anyone who is so 'into' a religion that it means she covers her face and lives a lesser existence in this life is quite ridiculous to me."

And there you go again Posie, I won't respond to your idiocy again.

"So if you want to were a veil or burkha in your own home, carry on you can do what you like in your own home, but in the street, in your job, in the shops, we demand you comply with our customs, and respect our culture. The veil and the burkah are nothing to do with religious belief, and offensive to us. And were the majority. "

whatever

Morris, men do cover up. Maybe not in the part of Scotland you live in, maybe not all muslim men (neither do all muslim women) That is their choice and many many men do, my husband does, although not to work - to work he wears a suit (even in the summer!).

What would you rather have for a a snack, a tin of beans and sausage or a tin of spaghetti hoops and sausage?

Just thought it was time for a change of subject

Telephones convey lots of expression particularly because we tend to concentrate on the sound of the speaker to the exclusion of all others.

If you are talking to someone wearing a veil there is a definite muffling of the voice and no visual clues to help.

Now I am going to say the unthinkable......why would anybody want to be part of a religion that enforces so many rules on the "believer" what do you actually believe in?

It's an ancient form of control. I am a confirmed atheist because it's all totally unproven.

"What you wear is no concern of mine but I reserve the right to see your attitude to covering as distinctly odd."

That's perfectly fine