Well done Belgium. Veil banned

[Nuttybear]

I fully support this. Really wish the liberals would put aside there protection of these men and free the women here. I vote for bring the same law here. I despise the veil and all it stands for. I saw a woman trip and fall because she could not see the kerb!!! Her husband/uncle/dad then had to guide her over the next kerb. I saw them again in the supermarket I so wanted to throw eggs at him but it would only make her plight worse. I know a minority want to wear the veil. Well, there are countries that support that decision. I know it might make matter worse for some but there must be a stand to free these women of this 13th century habit. Wearing of the veil is not in the Koran. All for modest dress, if you so wish but, unable to look around your world freely is wrong.

On a ward you'd also have doctors and nurses wearing surgical masks and communicating with each other in life or death situations with no problem at all.

I'm a sociable person with male or female friends. I just think that we live in a democracy and that means that other people have the right to live as they choose, so long as they do not infringe on the rights of other people to live as they choose. Obviously this is always going to be complicated, but it's a basic condition of living in a free society.

I don't understand what is controversial about that. I don't understand why anybody should have to justify what they wear or why they wear it. I think oppression is wrong. If any women really are being oppressed - abused, raped, forced to marry, kept out of the workplace by prejudice, and so on, then this should be dealt with. Otherwise, live and let live.

*Sorry Bahrain, I keep wanting to say Iran lol

posie seriously. How do you explain something without using religious nonsense if it's a religious matter. You do say you're intelligent maybe you just don't know how to debate. Or get an understanding of something you don't believe in. You have a problem with the religion not the way they dress, and if it wasn't this topic, you'd find something else about Islam to bitch about.

Lastly maisie in response, it isn't abot whether or not all muslim women agree with it, it is more they choose not to wear it. And who knows, in 100 years maybe we'll find that women didn't want to squeeze into a skimpy mini dress, or wear push up bras and chicken fillets, have hair weaves or get plastic surgery breast implants, butt implants etc etc.

CagedBird I'd love you to pint out where I have insulted anyone or called them stupid or naive. I have faith, I practice my faith and I am proud of it. And I also choose to live my life however I wish provided it does not go against what is expected of me as an active citizen.

In the case of both punks and nuns vs. women who wear the niqab, my point was very simple: simply not comparable! And many have made the comparisons...

And no need to point at me, this is not about me as a person. This is about all of us as members of society.

Can't we just say that the veil doesn't mean one thing - it means whatever the individual wearer of it says it means. And that means there will be as many interpretations of it as wearers. The oppression of women is a separate matter.

"It's not the same way as in societies where most women are veiled though. On a female ward you would have male nurses, doctors, physios, radiographers and so on, and male visitors. So a veiled woman couldn't be sure that a man wasn't about to walk in at any moment. Ditto many other groups which may have men randomly wnadering in. We are just not set up as a society to have real exclusion - even "women only" things are in buildings where there are men, are held where there are men at the other end of the room and so on. We even have men cleaning womens toilets. As a society we are generally set up to be very mixed between the sexes. For eg at an all female swim I would only expect the customers to be all female, I wouldn't bat an eyelid at a male lifeguard popping in to fecth some floats or something. Which I'm sure happens, because when we say "women only" we don't really mean it quite as strongly as in other societies as it's not quite so crucial.

But then like I say I come at this from the viewpoint of a sociable person with male and female friends, so I wouldn't understand. "

I'm sociable, I have male and female friends. I met them long before I became muslim and won't drop them as they are part of my life. Many muslim women have male friends.

In a hospital ward they have curtains. It is fine for male doctors and the like to treat you. Some women do have a problem with this and have a chaperone. this is not exclusive to muslim women.

A woman isn't going to melt if a man looks upon her similarly she isn't medusa and a man won't die. If she comes across someone without her veil on she's likely just to put her head down.

Kittykat they sound like some appalling experiences. The Saudi's are a law unto themselves and actually it is well known to be very hypocritical. The thing about sex. Never heard it before. In fact in the literature I have read it is the man's burden to ensure the woman get's equal pleasure. And absolutely no pain. But I completely understand that you can only base you opinions on what you have come across.

Minette, I specifically said I wasn't referring to you

TTL medical staff don't wear surgical masks on wards. Except maybe in the deepest recesses of the tropical diseases hospital.

If one of them did then they would quickly be reminded to remove it, as it would be seen as a barrier to communication with patients.

This business about the veil meaning whatever the individual wearer says it means - well that's the whole problem isn't it - because we don't knwo why the individual people are wearing it - because we are not supposed to approach them - because that is what many people want when they wear it - and without facial expressions the observer is unable to tell whether they are actually approachable or not - and thus errs on the side of caution (which I would say was natural). I am not about to start approaching people when I have no idea whether they want me to or not.

yes, takethatlady, let's say that it means whatever the wearer wants it to mean. It's a great idea because, unlike what CagedBird says, this is not about Islam, strictly speaking.

If, as a non-Muslim woman, I were to start walking around fully covered up, by whatever mean I chose (remember Michael Jackson...), it would not be acceptable.

Because no one would know who I am
Because no one would know that when talking to them I am actually pulling faces or smirking or smiling
Because, if there were two of us who decided to do the same and walk around together, no one would know who is who

Because in short it would stop me from interacting with the rest of society. It would isolate me from 'the other'.

If you want to cover your head/hair as a sign of modesty (as other religions do), go ahead.

But I object to a full niqab which only allows one to see the eyes.

Everything else it represents or means is a different matter.

btw, I was trying to be light-hearted with ref to Michael Jackson, don't shoot me!

Oh shit sorry just re read my post complete typo meant to say "Minette firstly I was not referring to you or the likes ...." I'm soooooooooo SORRY

no worries CagedBird - I was surpsied

I would just like to end my posts saying that I love that we have so many different cultures and relgions. I just wish we could integrate more.x

But I thought the point of the veil was so that men couldn't look at you, unless they were related. So where are all these male friends coming into it?

It doesn't seem very logical.

There must be some rules - surely - there ceratinly are in other countries - or is everyone making it up as they go along, and doing whatever suits them?

So, men aren't supposed to look at me unless they are relative or husband, and to preserve modesty, and thus a veil is worn. Oh except for Dave, cos I went to school with him. ?

I think I had better give up, I doubt I'm ever really going to understand this.

The people I know of other religions who have codes of dress follow the rules all teh time, I was starting from a point that it was the same with muslim women who decided to wear a full veil, I didn't realise there was such a lot of flexibility. I think I didnt realise because in countries where it is common I don't think there is much flexibility. So an easy mistake to make.

TTL - I think there is a genuine curiosity on here about veiling and covering, and if one is trying to understand (in my case as I teach RE and this question does come up) how best to answer it.

I have been asked why women cover and this was kindly explained last night, but one is then asked why do some wear hijab, some niqab and some the burka; is it because it is different branches of Islam, a Sunni as against Shi'ite thing, or is it down to the individual interpretation of the Qu'ran?

I don't think people want it justified on here, but explained, as it is something other than some of us are used to, or experience, as in some parts of the UK, one does not come across many Muslims (especially in Cornwall!).

It was interesting that someone said wearing niqab allows you to hide in the crowd, but does it? I would notice a person in a niqab far more than I would someone not in one.

"But I thought the point of the veil was so that men couldn't look at you, unless they were related. So where are all these male friends coming into it?"

I don't wear the veil. Never have.

even more now.

I said that I like being out and about and being sociable with both sexes and that if I were fully veiled that would not be possible for various reasons and/or would go against what the veil means ie you're not supposed to be interacting with men and as people have said, why would you want to etc etc.

You responded by saying that you did have friends who are male so yar boo sucks.

I said, eh? Don't get it.

You say that you don't wear a full veil anyway.

I'm a bit baffled then as to what your point was about having male friends? I was talking about women who are fully veiled and trying to explain why I think it makes large chunks of our society feel uncomfortable.

It seems that everyone is making their own rules on this. Maybe that is why people find it hard to understand?

When for eg a member of another religion wears religious attire and you ask why, they say "because this and this and it's the rule".

So I think people assume there must be a similar thing for the full veil. When people say "why" and the answer is "there are a million reasons, as many as there are individuals" then that is a bit hard to process.

If you asked me why women in the UK wear high heels I could give you a pretty definitive list as well.

This is too fluid to get to grips with. I am struggling to find the point at which I say "oh right, yes, got it".

maybe it is so compex that it takes immersion in the culture to really understand it.

oh right, I thought you were talking about muslim women in general not having male friends. well no, women who wear veils wouldn't have male friends. But are they really missing out on something. It isn't part of every society that men and women are friends. Muslim or not. Also not every person in this society has friends of the opposite sex.

scaryteacher I do understand what you are saying - and I think you are right that people should be able to ask questions (especially for the purposes of teaching) is healthy. But some people on here say it 'makes them feel uncomfortable' and that it should be banned because of this, and want to find the single reason that women choose to wear a veil and then condemn it, whatever it is. And others seem determined to find contradictions in the argument for/against wearing a veil, and bracket all Muslim women in a single box as if they have only one mind, or one motivation, and I think that is just plain silly.

I just don't think any of our choices about how we express ourselves are as simple as that, and nobody should be made to feel they have to explain their actions, if those actions don't hurt anybody else, if they don't want to.

Sorry - edited a sentence on that last post that now no longer makes sense. But you catch my drift.

Hi Imnotsotelling - sorry, I didn't really mean it like that. I just mean that it is the same as stilettoes, or whatever - if somebody said to me, 'why do so many English girls wear stilettoes - are they forced into it by men in your culture?', I would say that, while very few men would actually force their wives/girlfriends to wear stilettoes (though of course there probably are some nutters who do), many women do feel under pressure to conform to a highly sexualised image of femininity and high heels are a part of that. For many women stilettoes are a symbol of a patriarchal culture which values women for their bodies and which encourages them to take physical risks for doing so - I'm sure there are pretty high numbers of women ending up in casualty wards with broken ankles/strained tendons/back problems because they wear heels. But for other women they're just fun, they feel sexy and empowered wearing them, and so on.

Of course, this does not have a religious aspect to it - and I'm not Muslim, and I wouldn't presume to speak on how the religious dimension of this might complicate the issue. But no symbol is totally clear-cut. I for one resent it when, in my profession, I am often told that I look frivolous because I dye my hair or wear pink, and told I will be taken more seriously if I dress more conservatively. I feel annoyed that people want me to explain myself. I'm not hurting anybody.

I'm not saying things are unbelievably fluid and can't be understood - I'm just saying wearing a veil is like wearing anything else, and there isn't a right or wrong answer, and so it shouldn't be banned.

But there are some societies where women are forced to wear a full veil - by law - and there are no societies where women are legally required to dress as sex objects.

(On rereading this, the full covering of women means that she is nothing but a sex object doesn;t it? That's why she is covered?).

Anyway, I do understand the argument and that wearing a full veil can be interpreted as the ultimate feminist statement. But given that the full veil is a symbol of oppression of women in some of the most brutal regimes in the world makes it hard for people to filter out all of that context and say "oh it's just a veil".

Combine that with the cultural mistrust in the UK of people who cover their faces and bingo you've got a problem.

Our society needs time to get to grips with this. I would imagine that people will be utterly comfortable with the extremeness of full covering at the same time that they become comfortable with nudity in public - the two extremes of dress. Maybe. That time is a long way off I think.

I think the oppotunity to find out whether you want to have friends of the oppposite sex is important though. I do think that people are missing out if they are not allowed to get to know men. People can then decide whether they want to have them as friends or not.

This ties back into the whole work thing as well. If men aren't allowed to talk to veiled women then in our society veiled women can't work. And in societies where women have to be veiled they normally don't work I don't think?

You see that to me is opporession and is a direct consequnece of wearing this item of clothing.

No matter how many free and enlightened women are wearing it in the UK, and taking it off to go to their high powered city jobs where they have male clients and all is fine - for every one of those there are 10 (100?) women in other parts of the world for whom it is not a choice.

I find it hard to get away from that.

It's just a real hotchpotch of things which seems to boil down to "it makes me uncomfortable" which is then interpreted as anti-islamic ignorance. But it's not anti-islamic, surely, as people have no beef with other forms of dress that muslim women wear.