Well done Belgium. Veil banned

[Nuttybear]

I fully support this. Really wish the liberals would put aside there protection of these men and free the women here. I vote for bring the same law here. I despise the veil and all it stands for. I saw a woman trip and fall because she could not see the kerb!!! Her husband/uncle/dad then had to guide her over the next kerb. I saw them again in the supermarket I so wanted to throw eggs at him but it would only make her plight worse. I know a minority want to wear the veil. Well, there are countries that support that decision. I know it might make matter worse for some but there must be a stand to free these women of this 13th century habit. Wearing of the veil is not in the Koran. All for modest dress, if you so wish but, unable to look around your world freely is wrong.

Riven - I'm not hearing any of them. What exactly is their definition of feminism in term of equality with men?

Maisie they definitely are. I belong to one too! And I do keep pulling my husband up if anything he does doesn't seem fair to me.

In terms of equality with men, what do they fight for?

Oh please posie save the sarcastic vitriol.

Actually, I'm bringing up my children - boys and girl - to be respectful of everyone. I don't make a distinction between the 2 sexes.

Equal rights - but not when it comes to what they are 'expected' to wear.

maisie I think riven was talking to Posie.

Why are you so obsessed with what people wear. muslim women don't have a problem with it so why do you? I agree that if a woman is forced to wear something she doesn't want to, regardless of religion then she shouldn't have to. But if she wants to, what is the problem? I just don't get it.

So young Muslims don't use the veil as some sort of anti western banner?

Cagedbird....You really don't get why the inequality of the Muslim dress code that reaches as far as to cover a woman's face would upset and offend the virtues of some western women, really?

posieparker, for pete's sake. Men and women of all faiths and nationalities use clothing and symbols for political, cultural, religious, social and personal reasons. There isn't one reason why anybody wears a particular item, there are many. And I don't know what you feel so threatened by. Your posts are increasingly bizarre!

Referring to Riven?s previous posts.

?My final word is 'women should wear what they damn well want and its not up to the State or judgey society?.?

I am equally all for ?non-judgeyness? and freedom of choice, but to a certain extent only. We live in a society which has rules, conventions, laws, etc. In fact, we live in a democracy whereby we delegate power to lawmakers and government to make such decisions on our behalf for the good functioning of society as a whole. Your freedom of choice stops where the good of society begins.

One example that has been cited before is the foxhunting ban: people who lived in the countryside were up in arms that city folks would stop them from exercising their freedom of choice, their freedom to continue with a practice that is centuries old. However, the ban was made law... Because it was ruled that the right of a few went against those of many. You don?t have to agree with it, but this is how a modern democratic country functions.

Many people leave their country of origin because they do not agree with its laws, regime, etc.

Freedom of choice is not about every person having the right to do whatever they please, no matter what. Otherwise we would have total chaos and anarchy.

Two points:

1. You cannot compare wearing a niqab to being a punk/emo/having piercings or tattoos, etc. For the simple reason that the latter emphasize individuality, they give these people an identity, they stand out in the crowd rather than hide within it, while the niqab has the precise function to obliterate individuality, make you blend in and become anonymous and transparent in public.
2. You also cannot compare nuns in religious habits to women wearing the niqab. Yes both are covered as part of their respective religious practices, however, nuns also choose to remove themselves from everyday society. Indeed they live in cloisters or monasteries with little contact with the outside world (though of course this could vary from one order to the next). Women who wear the niqab remove themselves from society by the very act of wearing it, while still pretending to take part in it. There is no doubt whatsoever that the niqab is a barrier, whatever the reason for choosing to wear it.

Finally, I object to being called ignorant just because we have different points of view? This is a discussion where we try to put points across and understand both sides of the argument.

Muslim women obviously do have a problem with the Burka, otherwise we'd see more wearing it.

The thing is, you have no way of knowing whether a woman has been forced into wearing a veil, or if she's expected to, or feeling some other kind of pressure. Chinese women wanted to bind their feet. Women in past centuries wanted to strap themselves into corsets. We know now that it was all about conforming to a set of rules laid down by a patriarchal society, but still women abided by what that society set out for them.

Anyway, you say tomato, I say tomayto. Better go and find the 3 year olds tractor - I can only ignore his pleas for so long

Are you deliberatly being obtuse posie or just misreading the posts?

Some do. same as some women used to burn the bra to prove a point. Or some used to wear the micro mini. And actually it isn't as an anti-western banner, it's a "stop picking on my religion" sentiment if anything.

"Cagedbird....You really don't get why the inequality of the Muslim dress code that reaches as far as to cover a woman's face would upset and offend the virtues of some western women, really? "

well yes, posie, if you were forced to wear a veil I would expect you to be upset. Oh that's right you're not.

And I'm a western woman, oh but I'm muslim so I don't count right?

Plus, posieparker, I hadn't noticed that 'Western' dress (which as far as I'm concerned includes anything worn by people living in so-called 'Western' countries and therefore includes the veil) was so utterly equal to the sexes. The next time I see a man wearing make-up to attract a woman, or starving himself to be a size zero, or waxing his legs, I'll let you know. There's room for a bit of heterogeneity you know.

Maisie, why are you so keen on saying that 'Muslim women' are one single homogeneous group with one single view? They're not, just as the so-called 'Western' woman is not a single group with a single view, as this forum demonstrates all too clearly.

Woah! This seems to be getting personal! Totally uncalled for in my opinion!

If you could just justify why a woman has to cover herself from head to foot to ensure men don't look upon her then we're done. Please don't explain away with religious nonsense about it being between a woman and her maker, because it is not. It is between a woman and everyone else who sees her. And religious 'me and my God' is a real cop out.

I have yet to read one good reason for wearing one.

Minette, I wasn't calling you ignorant - I certainly wouldn't suggest that people with a different opinion than me are ignorant. But there have been some very ignorant posts, and posts that have refused to engage properly with the issue and to be simply judgmental. I was mainly responding to someone who seems to have gone off the thread at the moment who kept calling England 'our' country as if that excluded Muslims, which I very strongly object to.

"1. You cannot compare wearing a niqab to being a punk/emo/having piercings or tattoos, etc. For the simple reason that the latter emphasize individuality, they give these people an identity, they stand out in the crowd rather than hide within it, while the niqab has the precise function to obliterate individuality, make you blend in and become anonymous and transparent in public.

1. You also cannot compare nuns in religious habits to women wearing the niqab. Yes both are covered as part of their respective religious practices, however, nuns also choose to remove themselves from everyday society. Indeed they live in cloisters or monasteries with little contact with the outside world (though of course this could vary from one order to the next). Women who wear the niqab remove themselves from society by the very act of wearing it, while still pretending to take part in it. There is no doubt whatsoever that the niqab is a barrier, whatever the reason for choosing to wear it.

Finally, I object to being called ignorant just because we have different points of view? This is a discussion where we try to put points across and understand both sides of the argument. "

Minette firstly I was referring to you or the likes of you who raise issues that you don't agree with. It's when people start giving insults and calling people stupid or naive etc because they have a faith or because they choose to live their life in a certain way. I think debate is important.

secondly I'm not really sure it's fair to say people can wear what they want to stand out in a crowd but they're not allowed to hide in it .

Also I don't think I understand your second point, would it be ok for muslim women to wear the niqab if they stayed at home then like nuns stay in a monastery. Is that just so that you don't see them?

Alright now I'm a bit confused.

If women see it as a sign of their religious adherence and modesty and it is anathema to them to show their faces, as much as it would be to me to walk down the high street in the nude, then they're not going to take it off for a job interview or to work, surely? I mean, I wouldn't apply for a job that meant I had to be interviewed and work in the nude. Don't really get that.

Re the message of the veil. So non muslim men need to understand that the veil means "do not attempt to interact with me". But if I can't see someone's expression then I have no idea whether they are open to interaction or not, so I have to err on the side of caution. So the effect is, don't talk to me.

The veiled women I have made friendly overtures to have not responded, of course maybe they were just not feeling very friendly. if I had been able to see their faces I would maybe have known not to bother.

But then I always greet people I see "around" - that really is a huge cultural difference isn't it.

"There are plenty. They're campaigning to get women only wards (not just in muslim areas), they're are women only gyms, spas, nights out, social groups, walking groups etc. Before I was even muslim I did loads of things that were women only so that simply isn't true."

It's not the same way as in societies where most women are veiled though. On a female ward you would have male nurses, doctors, physios, radiographers and so on, and male visitors. So a veiled woman couldn't be sure that a man wasn't about to walk in at any moment. Ditto many other groups which may have men randomly wnadering in. We are just not set up as a society to have real exclusion - even "women only" things are in buildings where there are men, are held where there are men at the other end of the room and so on. We even have men cleaning womens toilets. As a society we are generally set up to be very mixed between the sexes. For eg at an all female swim I would only expect the customers to be all female, I wouldn't bat an eyelid at a male lifeguard popping in to fecth some floats or something. Which I'm sure happens, because when we say "women only" we don't really mean it quite as strongly as in other societies as it's not quite so crucial.

But then like I say I come at this from the viewpoint of a sociable person with male and female friends, so I wouldn't understand.

Equal, yes. The same, no.

Unless you have never heard of history I think you'll find men did used to wear heaps of make up and wigs for fashion, it is now not so fashionable.

Anorexia is fast climbing in men, many men wear guy liner and make up, many men work out to attract a mate, peacocking is a male thing completely.

Cadged Bird I did not just take my evidence from that TV programme, but she did highlight a lot of the points raised in Afganistan, she is an Afghan refugee (so not a white western girl) and went back to the country of her birth to see if the attitude to women had changed. She went to a female prison in which women were being held indefinately for crimes of immorality ie a girl was forced at 15 to marry a 60 year old, ran away from home, met someone new, and her father ordered the authorities to lock her up. That happened 3 years ago. The veil is unfortunately just a symbol of this sort of oppression: Woman arent allowed to work, be educated or choose who they marry. Which goes completely against the Koran which states that women should be equal to men in these particular issues.

Anyway "Woman in Islam" was the title of my dissertation and I had to research it in quite length including the Koran.

A friend of mine is a paediatric nurse and in dealing with a sick child from Pakistan (The mother wore the full shibang.) Anyway she was breast feeding her child in the room with all on show, when the doctor walked in, instead of covering her chest she dived for her veil and headscarf. That seems a bit bizzarre.

Furthermore Islam has been around for the past 1000 years but why are they moving backwards instead of forwards? For example mathematics etc came from forward thinking Muslims, they were famous for their debates and discussions. If you look at Egypt 30 years ago, you will be lucky to find a headscarf, look at it now. Why is it all of a sudden the rules have changed? Why are people listening to all these loony clerics all of a sudden? That is what I want to know. Why do woman who choose to wear the headscarf or veil feel that it empowers them? Why should they feel second class or not important enough without one? There are many Islamic women who don wear the veil and cant understand why others choose to do so?

Look at the world and what this cultural dress represents. A couple of examples:

A 71 year old Saudi woman was to get lashes for having 2 unrelated males in her home. She was a nanny to one of the men and was like a mother to him so he checked in on her all the time to make sure she had bread and milk. The other man was his friend who gave him a lift.

A senior Saudi Cleric was preaching via TV that you should make sure women suffer during sex. "You should make it painful, she does not deserve pleasure".

My friends dad worked in Saudi, he said that it got ridiculous when walking in to a shop because men get priority in a queue. A woman has to let a man get served first even if she has been there for a while.

A Muslim man said to me that his wife is covered up because she is his precious gift. He compared it to a nice piece of jewelery and said, "Would you not keep it in the box" I said no whats the point in that I would wear it!

A friend of mine from Bahrain was studying here. She kept to her faith but found a boyfriend (also from Bahrain) They were so cute together, they didnt kiss or anything because it was against her faith. She told her father he was furious and came and brought her back to Iran because he is to choose her husband.

I am sorry I have just had quite bad experiences and I am sure there are many women who would never have experienced the above. I have had similar experiences with extreme Christianity as well which is equally as depressing, I am just happy that society doesnt take them too seriously!

Should men not interact with muslim women who are wearing other types of veil - not full veils?