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Well done Belgium. Veil banned

1000 replies

Nuttybear · 22/04/2010 09:28

I fully support this. Really wish the liberals would put aside there protection of these men and free the women here. I vote for bring the same law here. I despise the veil and all it stands for. I saw a woman trip and fall because she could not see the kerb!!! Her husband/uncle/dad then had to guide her over the next kerb. I saw them again in the supermarket I so wanted to throw eggs at him but it would only make her plight worse. I know a minority want to wear the veil. Well, there are countries that support that decision. I know it might make matter worse for some but there must be a stand to free these women of this 13th century habit. Wearing of the veil is not in the Koran. All for modest dress, if you so wish but, unable to look around your world freely is wrong.

OP posts:
sarah293 · 23/04/2010 12:23

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puddinmama · 23/04/2010 12:25

hi

ok look, I find it difficult to communicate with my neighbours in the summer when their tits are hanging out in my face covered by only a lil teeny triangle of material, but am not going to launch a campaign to ban bikinis, infact I have to respect thier choices and try and not let it come between myself and my friends, yes why is it only a one sided thing this acceptence thing hmmm...

cotezur, I disagree with your opinion on the authority of the sunnah and am happy to refute you opinion some time privately

muslim schools, hello, there is christianity in almost all schools in Britain most in my area are catholic, heres an idea why not keep religion out of schools and just educate the children.

either we have a free society or we don't make we need to make up our minds on this one

Rollmops · 23/04/2010 12:26

Hurrrraahhh to Belgium! Wish more countries had the balls to follow. And I do not mean Ed Balls as he is of no use whatsoever. Well, could make a decent door stopper perhaps but that would be a bit of a stretch of his abilities.

FioFio · 23/04/2010 12:32

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puddinmama · 23/04/2010 12:42

good for you rollmops, now can u please tell me, what is socially acceptable for woman to wear, do I need make up, how should I do my hair while am at it since am not suppose to cover it, should I be a goth, or a punk, or a boden clone, is my natural hair colour ok or should I dye it

so its wrong for me to cover myself but how much of myself should I uncover, am gonna need to know these things

but please do u mind if I don't wear heels, I might fall but I suppose if its the done thing for woman to wear heels, I will get a pair and start practicing for this so called freedom and liberation coming my way lol

get practicing muslim ladies, freedom is a coming your way oh and u have to love it or else

sarah293 · 23/04/2010 12:46

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FioFio · 23/04/2010 12:47

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ImSoNotTelling · 23/04/2010 12:49

Ah Riven well that may be it then.

I have always tried to be v open-minded and socialised and mixed with as many people as possible - I try not to "rule anyone out" because of what they look like or their dress etc. So I know people who are criminals and I know police officers, alcoholics and people who don't drink for religious reasons, people who are athiests and people who are quite fundamental in their beliefs.

I like to talk to and get to know as many different sorts of people as possible - adds to the rich tapestry and all that.

So when I see a veiled woman, I wonder what she is like and want to get to know her and why she does it etc and understand. But the very fact of the veil means that is the very thing I cannot do - as part of the point is a message which means "keep away if you don't know me".

So now I know that, it is a start. As I understand that any overtures would pretty much be non-starters unless I was in a specific situation where socialising was what was sort of "officially" allowed.

I still have problems though with - if these women are competely apart from society and do not pretty much by definition talk to anyone outside, and (in the areas I'm thinking of) don't necessarily have much English, then what do they do, where do they turn if things do start to go wrong? I know there are special outreach projects in certain areas - I suppose that's the way forward.

ImSoNotTelling · 23/04/2010 12:51

I don't dye my hair, style it, wear make-up, wear high heels, wear "feminine" clothes. I have a good job and people treat me respectfully.

I think that is a very jaded view of society in teh UK.

sarah293 · 23/04/2010 12:52

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ImSoNotTelling · 23/04/2010 13:02

Yes I know they are the same as everyone else

I would love to meet you one day, and loads of other women on here.

I suppose it's a selfish thing really - it's about me wanting to know what other people are thinking, how they are feeling, are they happy or sad, are they angry and scary or friendly and calm.

I suppose I don't have any right to know that about anyone else, really.

While the numbers of fully veiled women are fairly small it doesn;t cause any problems really, assuming that it is a genuine choice for all of them.

If the numbers increase a lot then we will have to fundamentally think about the way our sociey is structured to accomodate them.

ImSoNotTelling · 23/04/2010 13:02

I can think of parallels where things have been changed fairly fundamentally to accomodate other religions so it is a possibility.

puddinmama · 23/04/2010 13:03

I wonder were we are getting that jaded view of society, if we arent allowed to cover ourselves, what is the acceptable way for us to dress

(pssst, I hate jeggings, can u ban them along with the burka, runs away from thread)

MaisietheMorningsideCat · 23/04/2010 13:04

Just coming back to your earlier point re Muslim men being forbidden to wear gold. Obviously this lot chose to flout that particular rule - and the bit about dressing modestly - but happy for their wives to follow Islam to the letter. I've seen plenty of Muslim boys and men draped in gold - it's de rigeur here in the Central Belt, whilst their sisters cover their heads.

oldmum42 · 23/04/2010 13:08

my initial thought was, good, it should be banned (to protect women forced to wear it), but on listening to a news item on the subject I realised this issue is not about "protecting women" it about making sure that no one can cover thier faces as the new CCTV security cameras can't use facial recognition on people whose cheekbones, nose and mouth is covered up.

It's about state control.

posieparker · 23/04/2010 13:09

Wearing a veil because you can is so much worse than wearing one because you truly believe, wrongly, that it says so in the Koran. The veil, for westerners, epitomises everything we believe about Islam and it's skewed view of women and their value.

Whether or not it is a woman's choice or not does not counter balance the fact that women cover up to avert the gaze of men at their bosom, hair and, for some, their face. Men do not have any such restriction, I can't seem to find the passage which asks men not to look, just women to ensure they have nothing to look at.

CagedBird · 23/04/2010 13:09

"You see this is the bit where it bothers me. Because in our society people do have full blown conversations in the street, toddler groups have fathers and grandfathers present, interviews for jobs may be with men (can the veil be removed in a job interview if it is a 1-1 with a man? and then what happens when you do the actual job?) and so on.

Our society is not constructed to give women lots of "female only" meeting opportunities, and while there may be some set up in areas with large muslim populations (women only toddler groups maybe) they won't necessarily be attended by any non muslims.

All of those things come back to not mixing with non-muslim people - and while that may be the reason some women wear the veil, for others it is an unwanted consequence."

Women who wear a veil are not ignorant. If they go for an interview they are fully aware that regardless of interviewee they will need to remove their veil. Also they would not expect to be in a workplace with their veil unless they had consent before hand (it literally could be a safety hazard depending on the environment).

Whose society isn't constructed to women only meets. There are plenty. They're campaigning to get women only wards (not just in muslim areas), they're are women only gyms, spas, nights out, social groups, walking groups etc. Before I was even muslim I did loads of things that were women only so that simply isn't true.

As I said before, I haven't had full blown conversations in the street with people I don't know. Maybe sometimes if someone's looked into the pram or started talking about my children, but generally nothing beyond "have you got the time?"

I do however understand that it can give off an us and them attitude. But so can many other "lifestyles"

"So in fact women who are fully veiled don't want to interact with people who do not share their beliefs, they are rejecting my way of life, and yes I am reading the message of the veil correctly. I think?

But then others are saying "go and talk to women in veils" which directly contradicts this idea that it is a deiberate rejection. "

ISNT they don't want to talk to men. You are implying they don't want to talk to you as a woman. Maybe a specific person doesn't want to talk to you. You are reading the message of the veil incorrectly. Unless you have said hello to a woman in a veil and she has said "FUCK OFF can't you see I'm wearing a veil???"

"What is not in the Quran is not absolutely essential to Islam. And while hadith are all well and good, they are hearsay of various degrees of credibility and not the literal word of God (like Quran)"

Cote d'azure actually you are wrong. The Quran is not to be taken without the hadith and the hadith are not to be taken without the Quran.
"Riven ,do you think that some muslim women in the uk have taken to wearing the veil because of the anti muslim sentiment ? i only ask because in the large city near where i live ,before 9/11 you used to see the odd burqa clad woman ,but most just wore a headscarve ,after 9/11 the burqa became alot more prevelant . Im asking you as you have alot more contact with the muslim community than i "

Bumpsoon I'm obviously not Riven but I did ask my husband this a while ago. I honestly think a lot of people (especially the younger muslims) feel there is a huge anti-islam movement and thus are using it to be visible. I still believe however that most are using it as they believe it is the ultimate in modesty.

"Do you know what, I'm actually disgusted by the ignorance, and the pride in ignorance, that is displayed on this thread."

Yep couldn't agree more tbh

CagedBird · 23/04/2010 13:11

sorry for the long post but so many opinions

Quickly - not every muslim man understands about the whole gold thing. My husband had a white gold ring when he got married and learned about it later, so he switched it for a silver one.

MaisietheMorningsideCat · 23/04/2010 13:12

Excellent post, Posie.

There is no ignorance shown, just a questionning of the burkha and it's place in society, and many unanswered questions imo.

sarah293 · 23/04/2010 13:15

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CagedBird · 23/04/2010 13:19

"There is no ignorance shown, just a questionning of the burkha and it's place in society, and many unanswered questions imo."

I wouldn't mind if it was people sincerely trying to get information on something they are obviously uninformed about, but it is more than that.

As I've said, i don't wear the burkha because I actually think it would draw more attention. People would stare at me and make up assumptions about me blah blah blah and I would feel very insecure. I prefer to blend in to the background. But that is me. Who am I to say how someone else should dress and feel.

MaisietheMorningsideCat · 23/04/2010 13:19

Agree - but how many of us actually approve of women who show too much flesh, or of men being paid more for the same job? We don't - we bloody fight it, and we try and move society forward using legislation wherever and whenever possible to ensure that women have the same rights as men. We're not there by any stretch of the imagine, but it saddens me that Muslim women aren't shouting from the rooftops for their brothers, fathers, uncles and so on to adhere to the same rules that they are expected to.

MaisietheMorningsideCat · 23/04/2010 13:20

imagination

sarah293 · 23/04/2010 13:21

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posieparker · 23/04/2010 13:21

So now Muslim women are using the veil to be visible? Wow that's almost blasphemous, to use something that is supposed to be a respectful way to dress for one's maker and now using that to show difference and solidarity....seems to me throughout this debate the burkha is far more political than religious when worn in the west.

And as a westerner, and a mother of three beautiful boys, I find it insulting that a Muslim woman is prejudiced against my sons. Assuming that all men want to ravage her in some lecherous way.

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