Well done Belgium. Veil banned

[Nuttybear]

I fully support this. Really wish the liberals would put aside there protection of these men and free the women here. I vote for bring the same law here. I despise the veil and all it stands for. I saw a woman trip and fall because she could not see the kerb!!! Her husband/uncle/dad then had to guide her over the next kerb. I saw them again in the supermarket I so wanted to throw eggs at him but it would only make her plight worse. I know a minority want to wear the veil. Well, there are countries that support that decision. I know it might make matter worse for some but there must be a stand to free these women of this 13th century habit. Wearing of the veil is not in the Koran. All for modest dress, if you so wish but, unable to look around your world freely is wrong.

Yikes. This thread makes me feel

Portofino - Of course they don't mention the veil or the religion, because nobody will argue against "more security".

In Turkey, when secular and mandatory primary education was raised from five years to eight years, no lawmaker in his right mind would say that this was so that religious schools wouldn't get their hooks into children for another couple of years, by which time they would be less malleable and more questioning. This was presented as "more free education".

Of course the religious fundamentalists were still up in arms. They are deluded but not stupid. Same tactics are used in Belgium for the same reasons. And a similar outrage results.

"Men are not allowed to wear gold" is not in the Quran and would be news to zillions of Muslim men.

"leave me alone, don't talk to me, I am not like you, I am separate, I am not a part of your community and I have no wish to be"

Yes, Imsonottelling- that's my point entirely. If one doesn't want me as a fellow female, let ALONE those nasty men to look at you, you may need to consider that the cultural norms of this society are at variance with your own norms, whether you're 'English' or not, thus either you need to adapt or consider moving somewhere where you HAVE to wear the veil.

"Goths, punks etc etc all say the same. As do off-gridders, hippies, teepee dwellers and hermits."

Do they? I don't think they do, because they are all things that people in society are used to seeing and understand. Most of these "looks" are a declaration of what sort of music you like, or what "gang" you're in at college, or what sort of politics you are. Most people with multiple facial piercings and mad hair for example are very friendly and approachable IME.

You are right though that these things are often a bar to employment, as a veil is. However most people grow out of extreme garb, and those who don't choose employment which accepts them or don't go into employment.

I suppose I am worried that some of these women are not being able to access jobs or work, or socialise as much as they would like? That is the only reason it bothers me TBH. This idea that women only mix with women and so it's fine. But our society is not constructed like that - so if you are fully veiled then by default there is loads of stuff that you can't do that the rest of society takes for granted. For as many women wearing it through choice, there are women who are not, surely? I cannot believe that every single woman in the UK is choosing to wear this covering. My concern is for those who are not making a choice.

No-one forces anyone else to have dreadlocks or wear green sandals or whatever.

I suppose I am coming at this from teh POV of someone who likes to socialise with both sexes, and does stop and have conversations with acquaintances on the street, and does want to work in certain environments and so on.

If all of those things are of no interest to you or are just seen as wrong then I guess being fully covered does not represent any problems.

I am still nervous that there may be some women who do want these things though.

But you still couldn't get a bog-standard office job with punk hair, multiple facial piercings, tattoos on face etc. In the world of work in many lines of business, it is all still very traditional.

I have never in all my working life seen a fully veiled woman in the workplace, all through London and the city and canary wharf and large firms out of london with hundreds of people. Not once. Or a punk or anyone else with an extreme appearance. Ditto no-one in a bikini.

I mean a lot of goths for eg look normal in their day jobs and transform at the weekend into something completely different. Those who do it full time have to find a niche - and it is their choice to do it ful time, knowing that it restricts them. I worry that some of the women who are fully veiled are not choosing this restriction IYSWIM.

It's certainly not Muslims who don't follow the tenents of their religion. I didn't mean anything by it. It just amused me to think of how proud they proclaimed they were, of being muslim, of the religious symbols on their very expensive cars while they led a very non Islamic life,dealing and taking drugs for example.

In answer to the original post I don't agree with this ruling. People claim to be concerned about women being opressed and having this clothing forced upon them. I fail to see how opression by one's own government,which is also dictating what people wear, is any better.

I don't like to see women wearing niqab and I know that there are some women who really do have the niqab/hijab etc imposed on them but there certainly are women who willingly wear them and I believe they should have that right.

You could say the culture they are surrounded by it makes them feel they have no other choice but don't we all, well most of us have behaviours that are influenced,affected and changed by our cultural norms?

I don't think the UK government would ever ban the face veil in public, they're all too wet.

If they did ban it, would they then have to consider banning the other unacceptable aspects of Islam such as:

First cousins marrying resulting in a very high level of genetic problems in their children?

Ritual slaughter of animals which go against RSPCA guidelines?

Non integration of Muslim children by means of "Muslim only" schools?

Honour killings? I know these are obv. against the law of the land but they are sickeningly prevalent

Banning the veil would be seen by some as the first step to banning Islam and that would never happen here.

So really wearing the veil through choice is an active decision to opt out of society. Knowing that you won't be able to chat in the street, will have empoyment opportunities severely restricted and so on. The same decision as someone makes when they adopt other extreme forms of dress.

So in fact women who are fully veiled don't want to interact with people who do not share their beliefs, they are rejecting my way of life, and yes I am reading the message of the veil correctly. I think?

But then others are saying "go and talk to women in veils" which directly contradicts this idea that it is a deiberate rejection.

Riven ,do you think that some muslim women in the uk have taken to wearing the veil because of the anti muslim sentiment ? i only ask because in the large city near where i live ,before 9/11 you used to see the odd burqa clad woman ,but most just wore a headscarve ,after 9/11 the burqa became alot more prevelant . Im asking you as you have alot more contact with the muslim community than i

Riven - What is not in the Quran is not absolutely essential to Islam. And while hadith are all well and good, they are hearsay of various degrees of credibility and not the literal word of God (like Quran). Loads of Muslim men have therefore never heard of this supposed ban against wearing gold.

My late grandfather, for example, was a very religious man. He was a hajji, actually. And he wore his gold wedding ring until the day he died.

personally i couldmt give two hoots as to what another women chooses to wear , i too have found it slightly uncomfortable having a conversation with someone wearing a burqa ,but it didnt stop me .

Do you know what, I'm actually disgusted by the ignorance, and the pride in ignorance, that is displayed on this thread.

Nobody says you have to wear a veil if you don't want to, or that you have to agree with it. That's the whole point. I'm sick of people's phoney 'I'm just concerned for these poor Muslim women' BS - and then ignoring what actual Muslim women have to say on the issue, claiming that they're so stupid and passive they aren't making a real choice (and that all non-veil-wearing women are making a real choice), and worst of all talking about 'us' and 'them' and 'our' country in the most stupid, lazy, ignorant and racist way imaginable. And having the sanctimoniousness to think they're right.

FFS - this is a country made up of millions of people from all over the world. Always has been. Just because you're white, or just because you don't have a religion, it doesn't mean you're more free from cultural influences or the desires of men, it doesn't mean you're more objective, and it doesn't give you the right to patronise other women and their choices. If, as some posters have claimed, some women are forced to wear the veil, then that is as unacceptable as the notion that they should be forced not to wear it. Forcing anybody to do anything against their will is not accepted in our culture. So banning something the veil just because you don't feel comfortable with it is much more against 'our' culture than wearing a veil or any other item of clothing.

And do you know why people usually feel uncomfortable about things? Because they don't know anything about it and they're too afraid or lazy to find out. If you feel uncomfortable, get a life. Get a real issue to worry about. And start respecting other women instead of patronising them.

Thinking a bit more about this punk business.

When someone sees someone wearing extreme clothes they may draw certain conclusions. But what this is over-ridden by is the persons expression. If the person has outlandish heavy metal clothes worn with a cheery open smiling face, people will know that they are friendly. Another person dressed in a perfectly ordinary pair of jeans and a t-shirt might wear a deeply unfriendly expression or even look a bit scary or creepy and you know to steer clear.

Our cues are taken from people's facial expressions.

When a person is fully veiled, those cues are lost completely, do in that sense it is completely different from otehr extreme forms of dress.

But readin this thread I have come to understand some things.

That in the cultures where this fully veiling comes from, women do not mingle with other people outside of very organised situations. There is no casual chatting on the street, women who are veiled interact with each other in organised situations, which are women-only.

Thus when they are out and about, veiled, going about their business, they do not expect to recognise people, and stop for a chat. They expect to go about their business in isolation, or with the people they are with who they arranged to meet and already know. They will socialise another time in an organised situation. being out and about is not a time for socialising.

thus when you see a veiled woman out and about, she does not expect you to talk to her, she will not talk to you. The veil gives the correct impression - she is separate and not to be interfered with.

She will socialse with you under the right set of conditions.

So it is a much more organised and less relaxed and spontaneous way of living. And it is separate from mainstream life and culture and completely different, and that is what the women want.

I think.

I'm dipping in and out of this thread as I have to get on with some work but imsonottelling, your post at 11:21:02 is what I would have responded with.

My DH is the primary carer of our DC, so he goes to the toddler group. There are a couple of other dads that attend as well. There are not many muslim women living in our town but supposing there was, would they use the toddler group knowing my DH was present? It's these small opportunities to interact that build community cohesion. I chat to people I see in the street even though I don't know them, even if it is just to remark on the weather. I imagine it is the same in small towns across the UK.

I completely agree that our society is not organised optimally to give veiled women the same opportunities that unveiled women enjoy. If those of you that have chosen to be veiled honestly don't mind that, then fine. I hope there are other positive aspects to the lifestyle that make up for it.

I'mnotsotelling, another thing you might have learned from this thread is that people choose to cover their faces or their bodies for hundreds of reasons, including Muslim women, and that nobody should be demanding an explanation for this. It's within everybody's rights to do so, and it can't be pigeonholed so easily as you suggest. I don't understand why people feel the need to find a single explanation for it. It doesn't require explanation.

Of course there is ignorance, the population of women who wear a full veil in the UK is small and many women on MN will never ever have met one.

At least people are trying to understand.