Well done Belgium. Veil banned

[Nuttybear]

I fully support this. Really wish the liberals would put aside there protection of these men and free the women here. I vote for bring the same law here. I despise the veil and all it stands for. I saw a woman trip and fall because she could not see the kerb!!! Her husband/uncle/dad then had to guide her over the next kerb. I saw them again in the supermarket I so wanted to throw eggs at him but it would only make her plight worse. I know a minority want to wear the veil. Well, there are countries that support that decision. I know it might make matter worse for some but there must be a stand to free these women of this 13th century habit. Wearing of the veil is not in the Koran. All for modest dress, if you so wish but, unable to look around your world freely is wrong.

If clothes represent who you are, and you choose to wear clothing that is prescribed by a version of the Koran that is very conservative (assuming Wahabi influence here) or identified with Muslim fundamentalism, what message are you giving about the western society in which you live, which that brand of Islam repudiates?

Why do the women need protection? What might happen to them without this protection? Why would the gaze of a man be something to protect against? If a man is supposed to avert his eyes, shouldn't that be enough?

Cherry, I think I can just understand the bit about the unwanted male attention; but non-Muslims of the opposite sex come into contact with each other everyday and don't form illicit relationships. They see each other as people, not as potential affairs.

I don't buy into the dress code being your identity. There are times that I conform to a particular dress code (visiting a Mosque springs to mind), but it isn't at all who I am.

I do have questions about what you have said, but am afraid that they will be taken the wrong way, so I won't ask them here.

Thank you for sharing that.

Looks like Math has asked some of then for me.

Haven't read the whole thread so don't know if this has been mentioned but I worry for women who are totally covered in our North Western countries of little sun. More and more is being discovered about the dangers of vitamin D deficiency and the fact that, the darker your skin, the more sunlight you are going to need for your body to convert it to vitamin D. It's one thing to cover up in public if you're going home to somewhere where you can privately get exposure to sun but being totally covered and then going home to a flat with no outside space is not good for you. Research seems to show that supplementing vitD is not as efficient as the sun.

I agree with Belgian ruling.

Full face covering is not decreed by the Koran. A (presumably!) woman I see fully covered is sending the message to me 'I reject you- don't look at me'....

well, not when you choose to live in my society!

That was me, Riven. Thanks!

'there's nothing wrong with saying 'don't look at me'.'

Further to that - I was chatting to my mum last night about the banning of veils, and she pointed out that the order of mostly enclosed nuns to which my cousin belonged used to worry about how to stop people looking at them when they did have to go out in public. They kept the full old-fashioned wimple (which covers your hair and falls onto your shoulders), but apparently at one point (in the 70s, I understand), they did discuss whether or not the nuns should pull the wimple further over their faces when travelling outside public transport.

So they were obviously struggling with the same issue: how do I stop people looking at me?

Riven - I believe this legislation is not only about a dress code, which is only the 'symptom', not the 'condition' Belgium is opposing - that very alien mentality which says women are temptation & should be hidden from view.

I understand that it is not great for the few women in Belgium who wear the veil, but a nation has the right to demand that its own norms and mentality prevail in its own country. If the thirty-odd veil-wearers in Belgium and their families find this so unbearable, there are surely other places they can live, where their way of life is the norm or at least better tolerated.

You will now be up in arms about this as you are English and the UK is your home, and you would understandably be upset if a similar vote meant your mentality was not welcome in the UK.

However, the reality is that it is not reasonable to expect your fellow citizens to accept and tolerate any alien mentality that you might adopt. If tomorrow you were to become a cannibal, for example, you would probably have to try to find a place where that mentality is the norm. (I'm not saying religion is cannibalism, but using an extreme example to illustrate my point)

This is my understanding of the situation in Belgium, by the way, and I hope you don't take this as a personal affront. I have a high opinion of you, based on diverse subjects I have seen you discuss over the years.

The bill doesn't mention the veil though CoteDazur, it is supposedly to the intention to ban all people from being unidentifiable when out in public spaces. It is a "security" issue rather than a "dress code" or cultural issue - on the surface at least. Of course the media highlight the Muslim angle, even though there are very few women in Belgium who will be affected by this.

And it's not happening any time soon

I still maintain that it hinders communication if you can't see someone's face. Meeting face to Face is superior to talking over the phone or by email, which is what you compare wearing a veil to Riven. Humans have inbuilt ability to read facial expression and we seek it naturally, particularly in a culture where the veil is not the norm. Most veiled women in the UK are originally from abroad and I think it hinders integration.

If you want to cover your face, then I would be reluctant to support a law that prevents you doing so - I would stand up for your freedom to do as you like, but if there is strong evidence that women feel compelled to wear the veil rather than being their free choice, and particularly if it is being used to cover up abuse, I would reluctantly go for a ban, but only then.

Interesting portofino..it's been a good debate though.

not going to happen now, is it. because of a much more sensible language dispute. is belgium really the country to lead the way on sensitive equality issues?

"Young men in particular seem to have a freedom in terms of what they wear and how they look that the girls don't."

tbh maisie I feel the same way and did insist that if my husband expected me to dress in a certain way as a muslim woman he should dress accordingly. I absolutely hate (and so does he) seeing a woman in a burqa or even just dressing modestly in hijab when her husband is in shorts and vests et al - especially in summer.

Kittykat, do you honestly think all women who wear the burqa are like those you saw in the television programme. Do you think the television makers go to the women who don't feel this way. I am very sceptical when i watch any programme on the tv regarding things such as this as they tend to only give one viewpoint. The western viewpoint.

"you choose to wear clothing that is prescribed by a version of the Koran that is very conservative (assuming Wahabi influence here) or identified with Muslim fundamentalism, what message are you giving about the western society in which you live, which that brand of Islam repudiates"

The whole point is that it wasn't originally that, the burqa has been hijacked by some extremists.

"Why do the women need protection? What might happen to them without this protection? Why would the gaze of a man be something to protect against? If a man is supposed to avert his eyes, shouldn't that be enough?"

It isn't so much about rape or being attacked. It is that muslims are to hold themselves to a high responsibility. If you go and sit down in front of man in your underwear, can you expect him to divert his eyes. Now i understand that this is at one end of the spectrum but sometimes not far from what we see in the street. Yes the man should look away, but at the same time a woman should not tempt him (within her ability) - I don't doubt that some men will fantasise and maybe even attack women regardless.

"well, not when you choose to live in my society!"

Isn't it supposed to be our society?

"However, the reality is that it is not reasonable to expect your fellow citizens to accept and tolerate any alien mentality that you might adopt"

Here in the UK for decades there have been groups who are different from the norm and it has been mentioned before on this thread - emo's, people with tattoos, piercings, the whole punk movement in the 80's and countless more not to mention hoodies

at Riven. Think I spent most of my teenage years hiding behind my hair - I was 20 before I learnt to tie it back!

"I still maintain that it hinders communication if you can't see someone's face. Meeting face to Face is superior to talking over the phone or by email, which is what you compare wearing a veil to Riven. Humans have inbuilt ability to read facial expression and we seek it naturally, particularly in a culture where the veil is not the norm. Most veiled women in the UK are originally from abroad and I think it hinders integration."

You are right, I think it does hinder communication. But you will often find, when full communication is needed, for example at a toddler group, interview, doctor's surgery any where you are likely to have a meaningful conversation, then a woman would be likely to take off her veil. These women tend to only socialise where there are women and there is no need for it. You are unlikely to have a full on conversation in the street and why would you. i've never particularly felt compelled to start up conversations in the street with random people and I don't know many people muslim or not who do so.

hi

this is getting a bit boring other people telling us muslim woman how to dress, we're not thick ejits who can't make our own decisions, we don't need u to run in and free us by stripping our clothes off lol go find someone else to undress for the good of society et al.

"You are right, I think it does hinder communication. But you will often find, when full communication is needed, for example at a toddler group, interview, doctor's surgery any where you are likely to have a meaningful conversation, then a woman would be likely to take off her veil. These women tend to only socialise where there are women and there is no need for it. You are unlikely to have a full on conversation in the street and why would you. i've never particularly felt compelled to start up conversations in the street with random people and I don't know many people muslim or not who do so. "

You see this is the bit where it bothers me. Because in our society people do have full blown conversations in the street, toddler groups have fathers and grandfathers present, interviews for jobs may be with men (can the veil be removed in a job interview if it is a 1-1 with a man? and then what happens when you do the actual job?) and so on.

Our society is not constructed to give women lots of "female only" meeting opportunities, and while there may be some set up in areas with large muslim populations (women only toddler groups maybe) they won't necessarily be attended by any non muslims.

All of those things come back to not mixing with non-muslim people - and while that may be the reason some women wear the veil, for others it is an unwanted consequence.

I would not support a ban.

But I have to say I have a lot of problems with fully covered women, what the veil can represent, and the fact that it prevents a lot of mixing. Because it just does, because our society is not set up with lots of situations where women mingle with no men present.

I don't dislike women who wear it, it doens't make me angry or anything, I just read it as "leave me alone, don't talk to me, I am not like you, I am separate, I am not a part of your community and I have no wish to be". And I don;t think that is a good thing.

I didn't know that Muslim men aren't allowed to wear gold. You learn something new every day on here.

Evidently certain Muslim teens and young men who liked to think of themselves as gangsters,and acted like complete twats, when I worked in Pollokshields,Glasgow, weren't aware of that. They were practically coated in gold.