Well done Belgium. Veil banned

[Nuttybear]

I fully support this. Really wish the liberals would put aside there protection of these men and free the women here. I vote for bring the same law here. I despise the veil and all it stands for. I saw a woman trip and fall because she could not see the kerb!!! Her husband/uncle/dad then had to guide her over the next kerb. I saw them again in the supermarket I so wanted to throw eggs at him but it would only make her plight worse. I know a minority want to wear the veil. Well, there are countries that support that decision. I know it might make matter worse for some but there must be a stand to free these women of this 13th century habit. Wearing of the veil is not in the Koran. All for modest dress, if you so wish but, unable to look around your world freely is wrong.

scaryteacher, I don't know why any of us should have to justify how we dress. All of our dress is conditioned by the society we live in - by things as frivolous as fashion (which dictates what is even available in the shops), and by our cultures. It is no coincidence that many women who do not have a faith and have been brought up in the West choose to wear short skirts and stilettoes - our culture often promotes and even rewards such clothing. We all wear things that express our identity - whether that's by conforming or not conforming to a stereotype, an ideal, a faith, a set of rules proscribed by our beliefs or by our workplace, or for a million other reasons. Why should women who wear a veil have to justify themselves?

Also, I know women who sunbathe topless in front of other women, but cover up in front of men. Why should they have to justify that? (I don't sunbathe topless because my boobs are so puny there'd hardly be any point...)

I don't see why the UK needs a government, Belgium seems to manage OK. Cancel the election and let the civil servants run everything.

I think the dogs in Battersea dogs home could run this country better then our government.

very nicely put

I didn't ask them to justify why they did it - I asked them to articulate/explain why. This is the one question that I've had asked again and again by classes when I teach Islam in RE, and I haven't yet found an answer that I can
give.

I don't know if it is to maintain a sense of 'otherness'; or if I can't understand it because my culture is so different and we have a separation between state and religion, whilst Islam is theocratic.

I teach English to two Turkish ladies who don't cover here, and are very western in Belgium, but do wear hijab when they go back to Istanbul. That seems to be because of pressure from their families and having to conform to the norms there.

Because takethatlady they choose to cover up in front of men and sunbathe in front of women. There is no rule to tell them to do either way. In both cases it is a choice.

Whereas in the case of the niqab, the rule is to cover up in front of men. Your choice is whether or not to follow the rule...

So what is objectionable is the rule, not your choice whether to abide by it or not.

we really must get together and drink wine discuss the intricacies of belgium politics.

It is a choice in the UK. I'm guessing that's why some Muslim women wear headscarves, others wear no covering at all, others wear the veil, etc (though that really is just a guess, and I hate second guessing). I support the right of women to choose for themselves what they wear, and respect that the veil is one of those choices. Whether anybody likes it or not is one thing. But the right to a choice is a part of the law and should stay that way.

It's not asking for justification, though. It's asking for an explanation of a practice that is not, apparently, a religious requirement for Muslim women, yet is practiced by Muslim women. Why?

Bugger, DH and i thought the debate started at 8.30. Just seen it's already on. gotta go and get angry about some other issues now

Thanks Math. That's it exactly.

"Whereas in the case of the niqab, the rule is to cover up in front of men. Your choice is whether or not to follow the rule... "

But minette there is no rule, as a muslim woman you do not have to wear it. It's a choice whether you wear it or not!

So explain please Cagedbird, WHY some choose to wear it, as it is really difficult to explain this to teenagers.

Sorry CagedBird, I was to very clear.

I did not been rule in the strict sense of something you cannot opt of. I understand that you do not have to wear it - but that is not always the case, some unfortunately do not have that choice.

I meant in the sense of conventions that are associated with the wearing of the veil: when a woman is in the presence of men or in the public sphere.

What I am trying to get to is the very significance of the niqab. The fact that it acts as a barrier between a woman and society, between women and men.

oops - I did not 'mean'

grr with typos!

and yes, as many have asked already please please someone explain why you choose to wear the niqab.

On this note, ladies, it has been a pleasure but I'm off for the evening.

I'd be quite happy to have a law that your face has to be uncovered in public buildings - shame all the emphasis is on the full face veil and not also on hoodies/balaclavas/bike helmets, making it an 'anti muslim' law rather than a security measure.

btw my copy of the koran is pretty explicit that every part of the woman's body apart from one eye is to be covered up - altho that is my saudi sponsored with saudi interpretations koran - kindly distributed to a large part of the world. why does noone talk more about saudi exported extremism in religion? all those saudi sponsored mosques, religious schools, universities arriving in previously more tolerant countries and teaching their own rather more radical interpretations of the koran. oh wait, I think I know. could it be the oil?

'It's not asking for justification, though. It's asking for an explanation of a practice that is not, apparently, a religious requirement for Muslim women, yet is practiced by Muslim women.

mathanxiety, I know it's not the same, but lots of Christians choose to wear a cross although it's not required, too. I wear a headscarf if I go to DP's church, too - no-one requires me too but it makes me feel comfortable.

"btw my copy of the koran is pretty explicit that every part of the woman's body apart from one eye is to be covered up - altho that is my saudi sponsored with saudi interpretations koran - kindly distributed to a large part of the world. why does noone talk more about saudi exported extremism in religion? all those saudi sponsored mosques, religious schools, universities arriving in previously more tolerant countries and teaching their own rather more radical interpretations of the koran. oh wait, I think I know. could it be the oil? "

Can't argue, sad but true.

I'm trying to find a way that non-muslims can understand but think I'm falling a little short tbh

From what I know, the Niqab is like the ultimate in modesty. Simply put it is like women who become nuns, they are seen as the more strict, austere and pious of muslim women in trying to emulate the Prophet's wives.

"when a woman is in the presence of men or in the public sphere"

They wear it in front of men in order to shield themselves from men's gazes, to avoid attraction. This isn't necessary in front of women

Scaryteacher - everyones dress code is a part of their identity, whether this is religious dress or not. Isn't this common knowledge? Our clothes represent who we are, and sometimes what we are.

In Islam, covering the hair and body is an act of modesty, and is there to serve as a protection for the woman. Protection from unwanted male attention. Of course, this doesn't mean that those women who don't cover are doing so in a deliberate attempt to attract attention.
Muslim males are told at the same time to dress modestly and to lower their gaze when coming into contact with women. Islamically, these measures are there to protect men and women both from illicit relationships, as Islam recognises that in everyday life, men and women will mix and come into contact with each other whether working, studying or socialising.
And thats it!

You see, I think that's one of the real concerns I have. I see so many Muslim girls covering their heads, but have yet to see anywhere near the same number of Muslim men doing the same thing. Young men in particular seem to have a freedom in terms of what they wear and how they look that the girls don't. One picture that will stay with me forever is when we were at Alton Towers one summer there were a group of women all wearing the Burkha. They were all young, judging by the age of their children and the men they were with. The men were all loud, brash, in tight jeans and tighter t-shirts, wearing lots of gold jewellry and being anything but modest. They also didn't seem to mind the attention they were getting - they were all very good looking, and they knew it.

Well, I'm an Irish Catholic who is just about old enough (or at least familiar enough with out of the way parts of Ireland) to remember a time when women were required to cover their heads at Mass, sit with young children on one side of the church while men and older boys sat on the other, when girls could not be altar servers, when in some parts of Ireland even cinemas were similarly segregated, and where sexism and double standards and misogyny were the rule.

I find myself wondering how much of all that segregation and female modesty in Ireland was voluntary on anyone's part, and how much of it was conformity because non-conformity would be too much of a personal risk, not in terms of violence, but in terms of being talked about or getting some sort of reputation that would set them apart.

Unfortunately the veil is a symbol of oppression. The tv program last night "Women, Weddings, War and Me".(BBC Three) The girl, when intimidated into wearing a veil, couldnt see and relied on the other woman she was with for guidance etc, she narrowly missed being hit by a car and bumped her head walking out a shop. That cant be safe!

A woman who (I forget her name, she was on this morning) helps muslim women in the UK who faced with domestic violence and arranged marriages etc. She said that many woman are forced to wear the veil to hide beatings from family members especially their brothers. There are other such helplines such as AMINA-Muslim Women's Helpline. Unfortunately we cannot know whether these women choose to or not and from last nights programme usually do so to have an easier life, quote "There are bigger things to fight for"

After our history in freeing women in society, I dont know why we allow others in society the opposite, you either have rights or not? Its politically correct and yet not at the same time. Its a complete contradiction and should in my opinion be banned!

I understand as well that we should all be allowed to wear what we like but at the same time in a so called liberal society, expressions of extremism should not be allowed in any religion as it causes social unrest, segregation and hatred. The veil is also not part of Islam, but part of a culture in which woman are seen as second class citizens and their only purpose is to be a servant to their husbands and a "gift". Do we really want representatives of such a culture here?

For reasons of safety I would argue that I could buy a veil, pretend to be a muslim and evade the police after commiting a crime. Criminals have been known to use the veil as a method of evasion. It doesnt have to be a muslim woman!