Well done Belgium. Veil banned

[Nuttybear]

I fully support this. Really wish the liberals would put aside there protection of these men and free the women here. I vote for bring the same law here. I despise the veil and all it stands for. I saw a woman trip and fall because she could not see the kerb!!! Her husband/uncle/dad then had to guide her over the next kerb. I saw them again in the supermarket I so wanted to throw eggs at him but it would only make her plight worse. I know a minority want to wear the veil. Well, there are countries that support that decision. I know it might make matter worse for some but there must be a stand to free these women of this 13th century habit. Wearing of the veil is not in the Koran. All for modest dress, if you so wish but, unable to look around your world freely is wrong.

Actually - didn't the naked rambler find himself in bother with the law on a fairly regular basis? Or was it the bobble hat and woolly socks that caused the furore?

I dont wear the veil mathan, you'd have to ask someone who actually does.

It isnt in the Quran to cover your face - but if some women choose to wear it, then why shouldnt they?

Yes I agree with democracy all the way, but not when it comes to choosing what I wear, or dont wear.

"It seems as though you have confused your boundaries between common sense and decency, and religious practice and ethics. "

see, to me (and clearly to others too) it's both nonsensical and indecent for a person to cover themselves from head to foot leaving only a slit for the eyes

it's antisocial and a security risk

and anyone who buys this crap about it being liberating for a woman to have the "choice" to do this to herself is either playing devil's advocate or needs to learn a bit more about women and fundamentalism

but since you've resorted to personal insults, there's no need to argue the point with you

But why would they choose to cover their faces if it's not in the Quran?

Where do they get the idea that covering the face is a desirable thing for them to do?

Anyway, as riven said earlier, (which made me laugh out loud) I'm off to be oppressed in the kitchen now, before DH comes and beats me into submission .....

Will be back later! Kisses to all

Cherrybaby I agree with you.
Let muslim girls be muslim girls....

I fully support a woman's right to choose (what she wears) - its got sod all to do with the state. I would support a woman who wants to go out dressed in stack heels and a mini skirt - that's her right, and I will support my sisters who want to wear any kind of body covering dress veil/niqab/burka or whatever. Equally I would support a woman's right NOT to cover up if the state enforced it (e.g. under the Taliban in Afghanistan).

A lot of the local 6th formers have started covering themselves up - nothing to do with their fathers - these are fiesty muslim girls, just an assertion of their individual freedoms and identity. Can we PLEASE start crediting other women with some sense ladies! Not every woman we disagree with is oppressed ! Glad not to be Belgian today. Democracy is majority rule with MINORITY RIGHTS - not homogenised society.

In fact I might start wearing a burka - coz I'm sick to death of being brainwashed into thinking what I look like shows what kind of a person I am. I'm not muslim, fwiw.

Greensleeves, its nonsensical and indecent TO YOU to be fully covered.
Not to those who wear it.

You say people should get a better understanding of fundementalism and women to understand the veil, which explains your minuderstanding of why some women wear the veil, or feel the need to wear it.

I can reccomend some good literature if you are interested in reading up on this further.

OP -I note that you said you wanted to throw eggs at him?! Charming..

But I digress...was out and about today and saw a large amount of women hobbling around in uncomfortable looking high heels, or with their flesh all squashed into jeans with fat spilling out of the sides while they self consciously adjusted their tops or walking about trying to look cool ...

I take exception to the pressure society puts on people to conform to a norm and with a media that tells us what is hot and what is not...but I'm not about to try and get it banned becuase I belive in freedom of choice..I'd much rather see a woman in a niqab than what I have described above but hey, live and let live I say

"Greensleeves, its nonsensical and indecent TO YOU to be fully covered.
Not to those who wear it. "

but are you unable to see that ALL social mores are subject to those contextual conditions? To me, for example, the naked human body is a great deal less offensive/frightening/shocking than the sight of a woman covered up so thoroughly she can't see where she's going

I don't think I am ignorant when it comes to religious codes and practices, I do have a degree which involved a religious extremism specialism. If you want to post your reading list though I'll certainly have a look - I'm always interested in new reading material.

The veil does affect others directly for the mere reason that it has little to do with one's relationship with God (that's the excuse) and all to do with 'the other'. It prevents individuals, members of her community, representatives of the law and representatives of the state from identifying a veiled person and interacting or communicating effectively with her. Communication is not just about the spoken word, communication as also about signals one reads on the other's face, their body language.

And you are wrong with regards to harmony: they might themselves feel comfortable doing all these things wearing a full niqab but you cannot pretend it is in harmony with the rest of society for the very reason that the majority of players within that society themselves do not feel comfortable with fully veiled women.

Again, I must point out that I am not competely against a scarf. I am however 100% against the habit that only allows the eyes to be seen.

Another point that proves to me the hypocrisy of claiming this is about one's relationship to God is the fact that amongst themselves women do not cover up. It is merely when they leave the private sphere or are in the company of men....

I am terribly sorry if any of this is inflammatory as I certainly do not mean to cause offence.

"A lot of the local 6th formers have started covering themselves up" so basically a load of teenagers think it's clever to dress in an extreme way, like Goths, Punks and Emos.

I think it does affect other individuals sometimes,Cherrybaby. As a teacher I find it disconcerting to have an interview with a mother whose face I cannot see. Our faces are not some arbitrary appendage, they display many non-verbal cues and signify our uniqueness and individuality in ways which words lack. It also sends out a signal of superiority - after all, I can't see your face but you can see mine.

But what worries me more is the very real signal it sends out of separation. Where I live a great many muslim women have adopted the niqab, and sometimes full veil, gloves etc. They are mostly young and I can't help feeling there's a bit of 'the in crowd' about it, 'who's the best muslim', 'look at me' - maybe even two fingers to western society.

It's certainly not an approachable way to dress and, on a purely practical note, our bodies need the vitamin D which sunshine promotes, and swathing oneself in black from head to foot doesn't help that.

I think we often forget to separate personal feelings from the law of the land. For example, my personal feelings are that the veil is potentially oppressive, unnecessary, a barrier to communication and something I'm generally not comfortable with. BUT. I do not think there is any reason to make putting cloth on your face a crime! It's mad that a woman could be criminalsied for what is essentially in no way near the definition of a criminal act. To make a woman who refused to take off a face-covering a criminal is absurd.With this in mind I recognise that despite my personal instincts about the veil that women who wear it have the right to do, and to wear it without explaining their reasons to me. I wouldn't judge a fellow women by her clothing, and I'm willing to accept that I may not understand her reasoning for wearing it, without trying to fit her actions into my perceptions and world view.

Minette - I hear what you're saying - but I really think you should go and talk to some muslim women, veiled or otherwise, it might make you see things in a different light... am I right in thinking you don't know many muslim gals?

babymutha
With reference to "let muslim girls be muslim girls"

Some children are born to Muslim parents. A child is not automatically allocated a faith at birth, they may be brought up with their parents traditions but children are born free from our religious indoctrination.

It is merely a form of brainwashing.

posie - they are intelligent, fiesty girls....probably going to be running the country in 20 years time, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss them.

With the greatest will in the world it will be longer than 20 years before the British public will accept a veiled woman running the country.

Anybody? Why is it worn?

tbh - I'd rather have one of the local 6th formers than the lot we're supposed to be voting for. At least they have ideals.

Riven how dare you talk common sense! we need everybody to be the same otherwise we can't function as a nation!

babymutha - well put.

'Antisocial'? Why? I think you're antisocial if you refuse to engage with women on the grounds of their dress. Perhaps if you actually talked to a woman who wore a veil you wouldn't think that! And if it was antisocial it would therefore be an expression of independence from social mores not blind obedience to them.

'Security risk'? That's just tabloid hype.

Can anyone answer:
Is wearing a face covering veil (with a post box slit for the eyes) against the culture of the UK in a comparative way as wearing skin revealing clothes is against the culture of traditionally muslim countries?
Apart from priests and nuns etc, we don't tend to outwardly present our faith in our clothing.