Well done Belgium. Veil banned

[Nuttybear]

I fully support this. Really wish the liberals would put aside there protection of these men and free the women here. I vote for bring the same law here. I despise the veil and all it stands for. I saw a woman trip and fall because she could not see the kerb!!! Her husband/uncle/dad then had to guide her over the next kerb. I saw them again in the supermarket I so wanted to throw eggs at him but it would only make her plight worse. I know a minority want to wear the veil. Well, there are countries that support that decision. I know it might make matter worse for some but there must be a stand to free these women of this 13th century habit. Wearing of the veil is not in the Koran. All for modest dress, if you so wish but, unable to look around your world freely is wrong.

Riven if you manage that I shall make you Queen.

And socks with sandals. And my DH's horrible blue shorts

Yes, in an ideal world we women could choose exactly what we wanted to wear all the time.

But the fact is, many women all over the world just don't have that choice. Culturally, they don't have the choice to get up in the morning and put on something comfortable/ attractive/ whatever the hell they feel like.

Sometimes governments need to give a helping hand.

In Turkish universities, the headscarf is banned because it is seen as being backward, conservative and yes oppressive - opposite values to westernised/ educated/ liberated. Interesting that a Muslim country takes this view.

It saddens me to see Muslin women wearing the burqua, just as it saddens me to see young girls dressed in next to nothing in some UK cities. Neither ways of dressing I believe, are completely the women's choice.

It's hilarious to read this thread directly after the forces calender one, seeing adult women argue that it's "empowering" to pose tits out with an dog but "oppressive" if women wish to wear a veil as a religious belief.

I'm not religious but have respect and a certain amount of envy for those who are. I do believe all major religions are oppresive but I also believe only reform by their followers can change that.

I'd totally oppose any ban on veils in the UK

Im a modern 25 year old woman, born and brought up in england. I have a degree from an excellent university.

I am also a muslim.

Uptil very recently, I did not wear the hijab (head scarf), but now I think I am ready to embrace this as part of my identity.

To all those who feel that banning of the veil is a fantastic move against oppression, look at the bigger picture.
There is a very tiny minority of muslim women that may feel pressured into dressing in a certain manner. (This pressure to conform is present in any society and culture, yet isn't it funny how it becomes a huge talking point when it comes to muslim women and Islam. Anyway, that is a whole different debate and I do not want to digress!) The vast majority of muslim women - on the other hand - are very passionate about their head scarf, their niqab or the veil. I encourage anyone who does not believe me to get out there and speak to those women who cover. Ask them why they wear it, ask them to take it off - see what kind of a response you receive.

Which brings me to the glaringly obvious point that is being missed by the stupendously short sighted and abusive new ban; isnt banning the veil the same as pressuring women into wearing it?

What is being acheived here exactly?

If it is getting rid of one type of restriction, one type of pressure, one type of conformity with another, then well done! it's been acheived!
The only difference is that this is on a bigger, national scale, and THIS, is the true meaning of abuse of human rights.

these women choose to do this in the quran women cover only their head and hair and dress modestly.
I know it looks scary and women find it degrading but the women choose to do this so we are all for womens right to choose then she choose to dress with the veil!

Apologies in advance for the diatribe but I have been thinking about this for a loooooong time.

Any ban will always be going against someone?s ?rights? or ?freedom?. For example, if the USA were ever to ban the right to bear arms, it would be both an infringement on millions? existing right to carry a firearm and a restraint on their freedom.

(before I get shot down for comparing a ban on firearms to a ban on wearing the veil, please do note that this is just an illustration, not a comparison)

However, as Onagar put it so well, ?We are always taking away the rights of people to do things in order to make society work better. It's what society is for really. The right to go where you want is limited by other people's right to privacy and so on.?

Having freedom does not mean a free for all where everything goes; societies need laws to function in as harmonious a fashion as possible. And this ban is about society and not individuals.

It does seem to me that a full niqab or burka (note that I don?t just mean a veil, I?m talking about the full face/body cover that only allows the eyes to be seen) does prevent women who choose to wear it from living in harmony within western cultures, with all the cultural conventions that are inherent to them. And there is no denying that fear, prejudice and ignorance play a big part in this but nonetheless, as things currently stand, being covered from head to toe goes against what is acceptable to the majority be it for security, communication or just plain cultural reasons.

Personally, I am against the full niqab for two reasons:

1. I see it as not an expression of choice but rather the obliteration of a woman?s individuality. It turns women into anonymous beings within a society as more often than not covered women are not identifiable one from the other, unless in very very close proximity. And therefore women?s role and identity is reduced to the private sphere.
2. For me religion is a private matter. I am a religious person and practice my faith but it is my personal choice, a matter between myself and God. Society for me should remain secular ? though strictly speaking the UK is not a secular country. An idea reinforced by the following:

Many have referred to the law banning the veil from being worn in French schools. This in fact a fallacy: all visible signs of religious allegiance are banned, not just the niqab. It is just that a veil is far more obvious than a cross around someone?s neck?

I'm done!!

Banning in general is a controversial matter, agreed. The only difference between a supposed ban on USA firearms and the veil is that firearms can potentially take a life, many lives, can de-stabilise a community, can ruin a home and family, and has the power to rob, rape, burgle and murder.
The veil?....not so much!

Also, in exactly what way does the veil stop women from living in a harmonious way in the west?

Did you mean it makes any ignorant onlookers insecure and afraid, because they dont understand why? I must admit, ignorance and iinsecurity do not work well with peace and
harmony.

is it legal to wear nothing at all?

Dunno greensleeves, is it?

As I said, the firearms point was just an illustration that any ban will always go against someone's freedom/rights. I specifically added that I was not comparing the two directly. I just could not think of a more obvious or fathomable ban!

Stops then living in a harmonious way in the west as it is against accepted conventions. Therefore like it or not, or even right or not, they are not in harmony with the majority as it stands.

oops - a couple of typos there...

small reminder

They haven't actually DONE anything yet! In fact the govt would seem to have dissolved itself this afternoon, so this very much a case of "watch this space"!

Cherrybaby, on your last point, indeed ignorance and insecurity do not stand well with peace and harmony. I could not agree more.

However, my reasons for being against the full niqab are clealy (I hope) explained and nothing to do with ignorance. At least I don't think so!

I know you said that minette - I was just trying to point out that the veil doesn't affect any other individual directly. It's a very private thing, whether a woman wants to wear it or not, should be between her and her relationship with God. Not with the law, the state, her family or her community.

I strongly disagree with the harmonious bit. I've seen and known women wearing the veil and doing everything just as normal; studying, working, socialising, shopping - all in a happy, harmonious way.

then it's down to me and my personal relationship with Great Lord Butternut-Hayfever (and he exists, because I say so) if I want to wear a motorcycle helmet when I go into Barclays and if I want to take my weekly preschool group wearing only my birthday suit and a rose clenched between my butt cheeks

what horseshit people come out with to justify this antediluvian misogynist practice

nuttybear - yabu.

riven - i agree with everything you have said.

i feel bad for the muslim ladies of belguim who are now imprisoned.

Greensleeves, you do that if thats what you want!

It seems as though you have confused your boundaries between common sense and decency, and religious practice and ethics.

This is exactly the type of insecure and ignorant person I was talking about earlier! Didnt have to wait long for an example did we

Minette, what a fantastic post. Not emotive, informed and I completely agree.....

Fox hunting, whilst I disagree with it, was about a minority and living in harmony with the majority point of view. It couldn't have really been about cruelty, the ban that is, because Bernard Matthews is still allowed to keep turkeys! So it wasn't about animal welfare, it was about the majority rule. It's called democracy!!

"going against accepted convention" is a very weak reason to enforce a legal ban against something. Allowing your ds to wear a pink dress also goes against convention but I would not want to ban it.

um - veil has NOT been banned in Belgium! The Bill has NOT been passed yet.

sgt, imprisoned by a poor interpretation of religion....that is a cultural thing anyway. Many Muslim scholars agree that there is nowhere in Islamic teachings that require a woman to be fully covered.

"Ask them why they wear it, ask them to take it off - see what kind of a response you receive."

OK -- Why would you wear it, Cherrybaby? Is it in the Koran?